# Is there a difference between racism & nativism? And which is more important in Obama-hate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473 "2009-10-03T18:52:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/1 "2009-10-03T18:52:26Z")
From [an interesting _Democratic Strategist_ blog-article:](http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/strategist/2009/10/watch_out_dems_the_tea_partyto.php#more) > [@](#): > > The “yellow peril” comparison suggests a much more robust conceptualization of the protesters attitudes – not as an antagonism against African-Americans in particular, but as a broader antagonism to the growing racial and social diversity of America in general – to the replacement of a white-dominated, traditional, conservative small-town American culture with a “Tiger Woods” racial mélange of white, black, brown red and yellow Americans and an eclectic urbanized culture of diverse tastes, values, music, clothing, slang and even sexual preference and expression. It is a reaction against a new world of Spanish signs on stores, Asians and Indian families moving in next door, gays calmly accepted as part of ordinary daily life and the necessity of having to be retrained in new jobs and fields in response to the economic demands of a complex globalized world. The “real America” the protesters want to restore is the America of Tom Sawyer and Thornton Wilder’s “Our Town” – a culture rooted in the rural and small town values that are still a very real and significant part of America. > > Democrats need to call this perspective by its correct name. It is not simply anti-Black racism, but rather a modern version of the “nativism” or cultural xenophobia that has been a recurring feature of American culture and politics throughout the country’s history – a fear not simply of alien and foreign ideas but of wrenching social and cultural change in general. > > \ > > Confusing this culturally conservative, politically reactionary “nativism” with “racism” against African-Americans is not only sociologically inaccurate but politically counterproductive. It provokes a sincere, self-righteous indignation on the part of the protesters and their sympathizers because they genuinely and correctly feel that in opposing Obama they are not actually thinking about the traditional racist stereotypes of African-Americans – they know in their hearts that the color of Obama’s skin or possible loyalty to his “brothers in the hood” is far, far, far down on the long and bitter list of objections they have to him and everything he represents. > > Just consider how utterly stupid and idiotic conservatives seem to serious Democrats when they smugly tell each other that progressives and Democrats are all really “fascists” because they support a variety of mild social-democratic polices. Within their closed ideological bubble the conservatives feel quite certain that they have achieved a deep psychological insight by recognizing that latent Adolph Hitlers lie just beneath the surface of everyone from Teddy Kennedy to Robert Redford and Jane Goodall. They actually sit around and pat themselves on the back for their penetrating aptitude at psychological analysis. > > This is exactly how stupid progressives and Democrats appear to culturally conservative Americans when they label as “racism” beliefs that these Americans know are in reality vastly different and more complex. It makes Democrats appear to be trapped in a smug, self-satisfied ideological bubble just as pathetic as the fevered alternative universe of the delusional right. However, whether the author so intends or not, this also raises the obvious question of whether racism or nativism is **worse.** “Wrenching social and cultural change in general” is an ineluctable fact of life in the modern world, and more so with every decade. Is there any better name than “idiot” for people who can’t accept that and struggle against it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/2 "2009-10-04T19:16:41Z")
It is also interesting and relevant that, geographically, the liberal/conservative political divide in America today is not North-South, East-West, or Coasts-Heartland, but City-Countryside. The “red-state-blue-state” meme oversimplifies the picture. See [this map,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ElectionMapPurpleCounty.jpg) which breaks down the vote by county, and shades from solid red to purple to solid blue. In this landscape, the Countryside/conservatives/nativists cannot hope to win; they are too far outnumbered, and the cities have all the money, power and energy. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/3 "2009-10-04T21:22:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In this landscape, the Countryside/conservatives/nativists cannot hope to win; they are too far outnumbered, and the cities have all the money, power and energy. This has almost certainly always been true. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/4 "2009-10-04T21:29:45Z")
The problem isn’t that they are going to lose. That is historically inevitable. The problem is how many are they going to kill in the process? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/5 "2009-10-05T13:30:34Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The problem isn’t that they are going to lose. That is historically inevitable. The problem is how many are they going to kill in the process? Yes, well, I’m still holding out hope that their [eliminationism](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=533537) is all talk and bluster. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/6 "2009-10-06T16:21:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, well, I’m still holding out hope that their [eliminationism](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=533537) is all talk and bluster. But things like [this,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=534749) however silly, make me wonder . . . :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/7 "2009-10-07T14:34:57Z")
If Obama’s name was Barry O’Bama and his dad was from Ireland. Do you really think they’d be conspiracy theories about him being born in Dublin ? I strongly suspect not. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/8 "2009-10-07T15:14:10Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > If Obama’s name was Barry O’Bama and his dad was from Ireland. Do you really think they’d be conspiracy theories about him being born in Dublin ? I strongly suspect not. There were conspiracy theories about McCain from many of the same groups and with the same logic. But as he lost, they’re not enarly as fun for the conspiracy theorists. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/9 "2009-10-07T15:14:21Z")
Isn’t this just another word for the “culture war” we’ve been hearing about for years? I work with a woman who is constantly whining about “those people from the Pearl District”. That is a section of Portland with expensive condos, high priced restaurants, and trendy stores. It is probably whiter (but gayer) than Portland as a whole. She lives in the suburbs and sees the people in the Pearl as snobby,self-absorbed, and too green. She hates bicyclists as well, but given the large minority of asshole bicyclists in town who run red lights and stop signs I can forgive her for that. She is really pretty obsessed with her hatred of people from the Pearl. The only real justification I can see is that people from downtown frequently ask “why are you way out here?”. Ignoring the fact that there are a lot of people living way out there for whom the location is convenient. Of course she is conservative and fits the usual profile: taxes are too high, mass transit is wasteful, climate change is a fraud. I think the fact that Obama is liberal is much more of an issue than the fact he is black. ---
**Author:** ![Zephyurs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/dfb087/32.png) [@Zephyurs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zephyurs)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/10 "2009-10-07T19:08:10Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > There were conspiracy theories about McCain from many of the same groups and with the same logic. But as he lost, they’re not enarly as fun for the conspiracy theorists. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/11 "2009-10-07T19:42:01Z")
I fundamentally agree with the author, although I find “tribalism” to be more to my liking. As DanBlather notes in his example, there is also a strain of economic reverse-snobbery that one sees, where it is “us regular folks” against “them stuck-up people”. Bottom line - accusations of racism is probably inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/12 "2009-10-07T21:03:28Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > There were conspiracy theories about McCain from many of the same groups and with the same logic. But as he lost, they’re not enarly as fun for the conspiracy theorists. No there was no conspiracy about it McCain WAS born outside of the US (in a Naval base in Panama). Most people agreed that would qualify him as “natural born”, but [the issue has never been settled in court](http://www.snopes.com/politics/mccain/citizen.asp), hence the discussion. Thats quite different from the attacks on Obama, which are purely the result of his father being an African from a Muslim Country. I his father had been from a European country it would barely have been worth a mention, let alone a long drawn out attack campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/13 "2009-10-07T21:12:09Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > No there was no conspiracy about it McCain WAS born outside of the US (in a Naval base in Panama). Not in Panama; in the Panama Canal Zone, which was US territory. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/14 "2009-10-07T21:13:50Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > No there was no conspiracy about it McCain WAS born outside of the US (in a Naval base in Panama). Most people agreed that would qualify him as “natural born”, but [the issue has never been settled in court](http://www.snopes.com/politics/mccain/citizen.asp), hence the discussion. > > Thats quite different from the attacks on Obama, which are purely the result of his father being an African from a Muslim Country. I his father had been from a European country it would barely have been worth a mention, let alone a long drawn out attack campaign. But it also wouldn’t have happened if he was a conservative. Then it would be “here is a Black man that worked hard, studied hard, and overcame the fact that he came from a single parent family. This shows that the US is not racist and anyone can succeed if they just try”. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/15 "2009-10-07T23:22:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Not in Panama; in the Panama Canal Zone, which was US territory. That being the point. It isn’t a US territory now, but was a territory, but NOT part the US when he was born, those born there were only given Citizenship rights AFTER McCain’s birth. Does that mean he was “natural born” ? Personally I’d say yes, but to say otherwise is by no means a crazy racist conspiracy theory. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/16 "2009-10-07T23:40:05Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > If Obama’s name was Barry O’Bama and his dad was from Ireland. Do you really think they’d be conspiracy theories about him being born in Dublin ? I strongly suspect not. But 150 years ago certainly yes. (Or likely, in any case.) I see this all the time in my town, which is an incredible mix of ethnicities. The old time residents, who have been here for decades and who were born here, do resent the various groups moving in and driving up prices and being different. It goes for groups with more or less money than they have, both. Some of the resentment comes the other way also. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/17 "2009-10-08T00:34:15Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Does that mean he was “natural born” ? Personally I’d say yes, but to say otherwise is by no means a crazy racist conspiracy theory. It’s not a crazy racist conspiracy theory, but it is a crazy conspiracy theory, because even if McCain were born outside the US, the fact that both his parents were US citizens means that he was a natural born citizen. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/18 "2009-10-08T01:00:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s not a crazy racist conspiracy theory, but it is a crazy conspiracy theory, because even if McCain were born outside the US, the fact that both his parents were US citizens means that he was a natural born citizen. It means he was a citizen, not necessarily a nature born at least according to the pretty [well respected law professor](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1157621) quoted in that article. There is a huge difference between debating a particular knotty unclear bit of constitutional law, and make unfounded accusations about secret (and completely nonsensical) conspiracies to smuggle babies back into the country and a forge birth certificates. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/19 "2009-10-08T01:24:39Z")
[But Obama is Irish](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HplZ_taHXLM&feature=fvst)! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473/20 "2009-10-08T01:40:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But 150 years ago certainly yes. (Or likely, in any case.) Make it fifty and I’ll go along, as I remember all the “Kennedy will take orders from the Vatican” crap back then. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-racism-nativism-and-which-is-more-important-in-obama-hate/512473.md?page=2)