# Is There a Double Standard WRT Sex w/ Minors? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327 "2005-11-22T21:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/41 "2005-11-23T18:29:20Z")
Manda JO, you’re making some good points, but you’re also painting with an awfully broad brush-ironically while railing against another poster for painting with a broad brush. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/42 "2005-11-23T18:43:40Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Manda JO, you’re making some good points, but you’re also painting with an awfully broad brush-ironically while railing against another poster for painting with a broad brush. Where the fuck is she doing that? She keeps repeatedly saying she’s talking about SOME kids. Some kids could handle it and and no doubt do. Some kids can’t, and the law is there to protect them. What part of that is so hard for people here to grasp? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/43 "2005-11-23T18:45:51Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I think this is the theory behind the double standard. We assume that the boys will not be harmed emotionally by having sex with a teacher, while the girls would be. Yes, but is that assumption true or false? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/44 "2005-11-23T19:07:37Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Where the fuck is she doing that? She keeps repeatedly saying she’s talking about SOME kids. > > Some kids could handle it and and no doubt do. > Some kids can’t, and the law is there to protect them. What part of that is so hard for people here to grasp? Her underlying assumption is that the only reason an older person would want to fuck a younger one is because they want to manipulate them. I do not buy that at all, and I think it throws her entire arguement out of whack. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/45 "2005-11-23T19:22:47Z")
> [@Manda JO](#): > > For kids in these catagories, having a teacher manipulate them into sex would cause real and lasting harm. Maybe if it had been you, you’d have been just fine. **Which is why it would never have been you**. The attraction here is not sex. Women who are “just horny” don’t engage in what had be an incredibly difficult thing to coordinate/conceal, risk their careers and jail time, and go against every societal expectation in order to get some. Not sure I agree with this. Sure, in some cases, that’s likely true. But I’d bet that in many cases pedophiles desire teens simply because they like the way that teens look, or act, or something like that. If I say that I like women with smaller breasts, it’s not because I want to “get into their heads.” It’s because I like the way small breasts look. I have no desire to manipulate anybody, emotionally or otherwise. It’s because I have sexual preferences. If you, for instance, like guys who are well-muscled, is it because you want to lord yourself over them emotionally? Or is it simply because you like what you like? This reminds me of the wonky claims made by some women (and some on this board) who think that the only reason men want to have sex is because they want to hurt women. Must suck to view the entire world in such a predator/victim way. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/46 "2005-11-23T19:29:56Z")
On the whole, I think MandaJo is correct, but I think there are a few points that haven’t come up, yet. First, she isn’t just an older, adult babe. She was his teacher. When I was a TA, we were told that an affair with any of our students would be grounds for dismissal, and realistically, the careers of any aiming to teach at a university. Some of my students were older than me, and everybody was above the age of consent. Besides the obvious that a student might be sleeping for a grade, or at least extra help, there is the fact that the other students are hurt. If a class is graded on a curve, there is a chance that someone gets a C that would otherwise have gotten a B, and so on. (My brother knew a kid who slep for his chem lab grade. The consensus was, he earned it.) Also, you are abusing a position of authority. If I an intern here at work gave me a BJ, even one older than me, I’d be fired, and depending on how any legal issues (sexual harassment) were worked, I could conceivably be jailed. Clinton got off lucky, if you’ll pardon the pun. I don’t think there is any question that what she did was morally wrong, and is illegal for good reason. I don’t think most of the women who have made the news are predatory in the sense that MandaJo is talking. My brother had a friend who lost his virginity to a 30 something guest at his dad’s hotel. He was legal. There was no relationship. That was just a case of two horny individuals. That is the kind of situation most guys are thinking of when they say, “Where were teachers like that when I was a teenager?” These women are different. There is a pathetic case in the Denver area of a woman, around 36, who got alcohol and drugs for her teenage son and his friends. And slept with them. Her excuse was “she just wanted to be a cool mom.” Think of what her son is going through right now. From what I’ve read, most of these women are needy and immature. They’re not going to hit on a kid who is essentially a very young adult, they’re going to hit on a kid at least as immature as they are. I think the primary damage to a 13-14 year old kid (and yes, I have a boy who turns 14 today) is that he might well fixate on the woman, and she is clearly not healthy. Positive reinforcement is the best way to train, and there is no positive reinforcement like sex. That is what the parents of the kid who screwed around with Mary Kay Whatever worry about. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/47 "2005-11-23T19:32:10Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > …I imagine even the father probably secretly thought, “Way to go kid, I glad he’s not gay”. If it was his daughter, he would have been shopping for a good accurate weapon. > Jim There is some truth to this. But as a father of teenage boys and girls, and having seen several of her pictures, I’d probably have thought “Damn! The kid looks like me, why didn’t she hit on me?!” ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/48 "2005-11-23T19:36:50Z")
**SlowMindThinking** , you raise a good point. The unequal relationship makes it unworkable at best. But that does not prove that LaFave’s motive was to manipulate or take advantage. (Then again, it doesn’t disprove it, either.) It’s entirely possible that she just has a thing for teen bone. No, that doesn’t excuse what she did, but I don’t think we can give her a comprehensive psych evaluation merely because of her age and that of her lover. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/49 "2005-11-23T19:54:35Z")
The crime against humanity would be to not acknowledge officially the differences between men and women. It is the differences, not the similarities which make us great. The 2nd issue is far more insidious, that of having ‘unwritten’ laws, one such unwritten law would be that the mother gets preference in custody case, another such law is that a certain speed over the speed limit is ‘ok’ (so called enforcement tollerences). By not putting this down in writing, but enforcing these unwritten laws causes arbitrary justice, which is the essence of unfair justice and breeds abuse of power and favoritism. If you are going to act like a law is there, make the law and put it down in b&w. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/50 "2005-11-23T19:56:52Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The crime against humanity would be to not acknowledge officially the differences between men and women. Such as? I presume you mean psychological differences as opposed to the obvious anatomical ones. But what psychological differences are there, really? ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/51 "2005-11-23T21:14:28Z")
You know I haven’t read anyone making this point: **What if the teacher was ass ugly instead of the super hottie that she is?** Where I work (and where I went to college) if you were a smoking hot chick, you get away with anything with little more than a slap on the wrist. If I had pulled **half** the crap that the sorority chicks pulled down the street from me I would have gone right to jail. Seriously. I didn’t mean to offend anyone in here by the term “chick.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/52 "2005-11-23T21:21:57Z")
> [@Translucent Daydream](#): > > You know I haven’t read anyone making this point: > > **What if the teacher was ass ugly instead of the super hottie that she is?** > > Where I work (and where I went to college) if you were a smoking hot chick, you get away with anything with little more than a slap on the wrist. > > If I had pulled **half** the crap that the sorority chicks pulled down the street from me I would have gone right to jail. > > Seriously. > > I didn’t mean to offend anyone in here by the term “chick.” Quite honestly, I think her punishment would have been worse. Not right, just what I think would have happened. Jim ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/53 "2005-11-23T21:40:09Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Not sure I agree with this. Sure, in some cases, that’s likely true. But I’d bet that in many cases pedophiles desire teens simply because they like the way that teens look, or act, or something like that. If I say that I like women with smaller breasts, it’s not because I want to “get into their heads.” It’s because I like the way small breasts look. I have no desire to manipulate anybody, emotionally or otherwise. It’s because I have sexual preferences. If you, for instance, like guys who are well-muscled, is it because you want to lord yourself over them emotionally? Or is it simply because you like what you like? Honestly, this is one place where I think a double standard does apply to some degree: women are so strongly socialized AWAY from being attracted to younger men and men so strongly socialized TOWARDS being attracted to younger women that I think it is MORE likely that a woman who is sexually involved with a much younger student is working from motivations other than simple attraction. Inevitably? Of course not. But it bothers me that it is treated as the less serious situation when I think that in practice it is more likely to be founded in a desire to mantipulate someone. And I want to emphasize **SlowMindThinking’s** point about this being her student. I am coming at this from that perpective. I have so much power over some of my kids. Not all. But any half-way decent teacher has half a dozen students who would walk through fire for them, and there is no way I, myself, can ever be sure I am not manipulating them. I worry about unduly influencing their choice of university or major: any sexual relationship based on the same type of power imbalence is inherently coereced. There’s no way you can be sure you aren’t being manipulative. ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/54 "2005-11-23T21:42:42Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Quite honestly, I think her punishment would have been worse. > Not right, just what I think would have happened. > > Jim Agreed. As far as it not being right but what would have happened, it goes back to kanicbird’s point on arbitrary justice. It’s not right but what do ya do? It’s easier to argue absolute justice when arbitrary justice does not affect you, but how often does that really happen? Kind of like waiting for someone to cast the first stone, who among us qualifies as without sin? > [@Malacandra](#): > > Ever seen a size 22 ass crammed into size 16 mock-leopardskin leggings, and hair blonde-bleached so brittle it breaks if you look at it? The drive for equality is doing its best. :eek: LMAO ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/55 "2005-11-23T22:10:57Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > But I think that equal damage is done by the conviction and branding of people who are, after all, only human, and who are **not** predatory. There was an instance from Australia reported in the gay press a while ago regarding a man in his 20s convicted of a sex offense for engaging in gay sex with a 15-year-old boy who maintained to the court that it was his idea, that he had been the aggressor in turning the relationship sexual, and that his older partner had at no time played any head games with him. > > And that sort of thing means that we need to figure out how to walk a very tough balancing act. Maybe so, but fact remains, he was the adult in the relationship, and could have said no. I’m sure there were teens (male and female) who tried to seduce their teachers. Does that mean that teacher is off the hook? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/56 "2005-11-23T22:12:38Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Ever seen a size 22 ass crammed into size 16 mock-leopardskin leggings, and hair blonde-bleached so brittle it breaks if you look at it? The drive for equality is doing its best. 🙂 This reminds me of a fat Peggy Bundy… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/57 "2005-11-23T22:57:16Z")
The stereotype when it comes to sexuality is that for men it is a chore while for women it is a choice. Like any stereotype it is not always true, but also like any stereotype, it is accurate as a generality. Don’t believe me? Put a hot guy and an average-looking woman in a bar an hour before closing time. If both wanted to get some opposite-gender tail that evening, which one are you wagering has the better chance? If a guy not in a relationship has a woman he barely knows want to sleep with him, is he more likely to say yes than the girl who has a guy hitting on her the same way? So color me unsurprised that we treat a woman who sleeps with a teenager differently in the eyes of the law than the other way around because we’re filtering the law through our own makeup. The fact is that a teenage boy sure CAN be taken advantage of by a female, but when looking at it when it happens, it’s not surprising that someone might think differently. For example, in the recent case of Sandra “Beth” Geisel: > [@](#): > > Judge (Stephen) Herrick told Geisel, “The 16-year-old in this case is a victim in the statutory sense only, and certainly not a victim by you in any other sense of the word.” > > [WTEN](http://www.wten.com/Global/story.asp?S=4156163&nav=6uyN) If a judge is making the determination that a teenage boy was not really a victim - and you KNOW that a judge would never be able to make such a determination aloud if the genders were reversed, at least not without being publicly castrated for insensitivity - how can we expect Joe Sixpack to make a distinction? The only unsurprising thing to me about these female teachers banging their underage students is how hot they seem to always be… When did that shit start? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/58 "2005-11-24T00:15:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Such as? I presume you mean psychological differences as opposed to the obvious anatomical ones. But what psychological differences are there, really? Well a humorous listing can be seen at : [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/3002946.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3002946.stm) And I’m sure you remember the hub-bub at Harvard not to long ago: [http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/01/17/summers\_remarks\_on\_women\_draw\_fire?mode=PF](http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/01/17/summers_remarks_on_women_draw_fire?mode=PF) Another look at the above (from a different POV can be seen here: > **[The Times & The Sunday Times](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/)** > > News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times The point that I am trying to make (well one of them) is in todays PC society we are not allowed to explore differences, even when the obviously exist. I think it’s pretty fair to say that most poeple beleive that men and women are somewhat different, somehow wired differently, though when you dare to mention it you are shuned and censored, which is the exact opposite of what should happen in a free society. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/59 "2005-11-24T00:40:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Maybe so, but fact remains, he was the adult in the relationship, and could have said no. > > I’m sure there were teens (male and female) who tried to seduce their teachers. Does that mean that teacher is off the hook? I don’t think so. Especially because of the age we are talking about here. Yeah, there are plenty of 17 year olds of either sex who look like adults. I can’t think of a 15 year old girl who does, but I’m sure there are some. 14 year old boys? I don’t think so. A minority shave regularly, but none look like adults. That means the woman is either attracted to juvenile features, which makes her a pedophile, or is so psychologically screwed up, that she can overcome the natural revulsion (at least within our society) to such an act. LaFave claimed it was the “excitement” of a forbidden act. If that was the case, she could have tried S&M in a church. My guess would be that she still had an overwhelming need to be cool and popular - with the junior high set. As to why the teachers are always hot, that should be obvious. I doubt most of the ones that aren’t hot succeed. And of the minority that succeed, the student ain’t bragging enough to be caught. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327/60 "2005-11-24T01:01:09Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Not sure I agree with this. Sure, in some cases, that’s likely true. But I’d bet that in many cases pedophiles desire teens simply because they like the way that teens look, or act, or something like that. If I say that I like women with smaller breasts, it’s not because I want to “get into their heads.” It’s because I like the way small breasts look. I have no desire to manipulate anybody, emotionally or otherwise. It’s because I have sexual preferences. If you, for instance, like guys who are well-muscled, is it because you want to lord yourself over them emotionally? Or is it simply because you like what you like? > > This reminds me of the wonky claims made by some women (and some on this board) who think that the only reason men want to have sex is because they want to hurt women. Must suck to view the entire world in such a predator/victim way. But the thing is that an adult who is both attracted to teens and acts on that attraction isn’t just being attracted based on their looks. Say a man is 35 and attracted to small breasts because he likes they way they look. I can understand that. But the man who is more interested in small- breasted 15 year olds than he is in small- breasted 20 or 25 year olds clearly has another factor in his attraction. And while it may not be an actual “desire to get into their heads” , it very likely is true that the 15 year old’s relative immaturity is itself a big factor in the attraction. There has to be some reason to _prefer_ the relationship that will have to be hidden, the one that will involve outside restrictions such as drinking ages and curfews, the one that will lead to social disapproval and possibly the loss of a job and jail, while most 35 year old men might glance at the 15 year old, possibly think she’s attractive, and immediately put her out of their minds. The only ones I can see are either that the immaturity itself is a turn on , or our 35 year old figures he’s got a better chance with the 15 year old than with a 25 year old- which still really goes back to her immaturity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-double-standard-wrt-sex-w-minors/332327.md?page=4)