# Is there a fact checker for the State of the Union and GOP response? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2012, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687 "2012-01-26T06:16:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/1 "2012-01-26T06:16:25Z")
Some bold claims were made in both, and they contradicted each other. I’d like to know what the truth is. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/2 "2012-01-26T06:24:11Z")
Politifact did some of Obama’s speech. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/3 "2012-01-26T06:46:48Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Politifact did some of Obama’s speech. Well, according to Rachel Maddow, Politifact took Obama’s numbers on jobs created and rated it a half-truth. When they were informed that the numbers were factually correct, they changed the rating to mostly-true. They also commonly call rounded numbers untrue, even where exact numbers can’t be found. So as usual, Politifact couldn’t tell a fact from a hole in their ass. They only survive because one side or the other will agree with their useless ratings individually, so they get cited a lot. And then in the next breath they are scorned for a different rating. Which makes it quite comical since they receive their raves and pans for incorrect evaluations so often. The first thing fact checkers should do is acknowledge that politicians avoid the kind of explicit unambiguous statements that are demonstrably true or false, and not bother rating these at all, or placing them all in the false category since they can’t be disproved. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/4 "2012-01-26T07:46:55Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The first thing fact checkers should do is acknowledge that politicians avoid the kind of explicit unambiguous statements that are demonstrably true or false, and not bother rating these at all, or placing them all in the false category since they can’t be disproved. Right, but surely someone somewhere can add politically neutral context to these claims. Forget future predictions, the presidents says we’re good, the opposition says it’s awful. How can the true state of the union not be a fact? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/5 "2012-01-26T07:50:58Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > How can the true state of the union not be a fact? Because it’s totally subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/6 "2012-01-26T07:59:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Because it’s totally subjective. We’re better than Angola and worse than Luxembourg, but with context there is no reason a point can’t be plotted on our national trajectory without further comment. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/7 "2012-01-26T08:03:00Z")
Suppose we added 2 million jobs in the last year. What does that tell us about the state of the country? Sounds good, but it’s less than the number of jobs lost in recent years, unemployment is still high. So is the glass half full or half empty? It’s all in the eye of the beholder. There are a few facts that can be determined, but the context you speak of is more subjective framework that can place the facts where it best suits the speaker. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/8 "2012-01-26T09:56:13Z")
Quis nerdiet ipsos nerdes? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/9 "2012-01-26T10:54:59Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Because it’s totally subjective. Not in the long run… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/10 "2012-01-26T12:28:27Z")
[Politifact has some egg on its face.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/25/obama-sotu-politifact-backtrack_n_1232066.html) > [@](#): > > In his remarks, Obama described the damage to the economy, including losing millions of jobs “before our policies were in full effect.” Then he describe [sic!] the subsequent job increases, essentially taking credit for the job growth. But labor economists tell us that no mayor or governor or president deserves all the claim or all the credit for changes in employment. > […] > Obama is correct on both counts when using private-sector job numbers. But he went too far when he implicitly credited his administration policies. And then later… > [@](#): > > Our original Half True rating was based on an interpretation that Obama was crediting his policies for the jobs increase. But we’ve concluded that he was not making that linkage as strongly as we initially believed and have decided to change the ruling to Mostly True. What did Obama say? “businesses have created more than 3 million jobs … they created the most jobs since 2005.” Somehow Politifact construed this as Obama taking credit for this. I suppose if Obama said “hey, nice weather isn’t it?” then Politifact would chastise him for taking credit for it. ---
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/11 "2012-01-26T12:56:16Z")
Not only are Obama’s promises rehashed from the last speech and written at an 8th grade level (for the 3rd consecutive time, ranking at the [very bottom](http://blog.lib.umn.edu/cspg/smartpolitics/2012/01/my_message_is_simple_obamas_so.php) of the past 70 years of SOTU speeches), but his [rhetoric in no way matches reality](http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120125/D9SFO48G0.html). So yes, fact checks have been done. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/12 "2012-01-26T13:11:54Z")
Talk about 8th grade level, the oil industries propaganda that stopping their subsidies is equivalent to a tax increase isn’t aimed at high school graduates. The rest of your “fact check” glurge isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on, if someone was stupid enough to print it. ---
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/13 "2012-01-26T13:18:03Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Talk about 8th grade level, the oil industries propaganda that stopping their subsidies is equivalent to a tax increase isn’t aimed at high school graduates. The rest of your “fact check” glurge isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on, if someone was stupid enough to print it. That’s not a legitimate argument or defense. Your oil company remark isnt part of the topic or remotely relevant. If anyone cares to take apart the fact check I linked, I would be interested and open minded. I dont want to see Obama get unfairly picked on. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/14 "2012-01-26T13:27:07Z")
When you post a cite that includes this garbage > [@](#): > > THE FACTS: This is at least Obama’s third run at stripping subsidies from the oil industry. Back when fellow Democrats formed the House and Senate majorities, he sought $36.5 billion in tax increases on oil and gas companies over the next decade, but Congress largely ignored the request. He called again to end such tax breaks in last year’s State of the Union speech. And he’s now doing it again, despite facing a wall of opposition from Republicans who want to spur domestic oil and gas production and oppose tax increases generally. it then surprises you that someone doesn’t swallow it? ---
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/15 "2012-01-26T13:30:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > When you post a cite that includes this garbage it then surprises you that someone doesn’t swallow it? You still havent supplied contradictory information debunking their list of claims. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/16 "2012-01-26T13:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > OBAMA: “Right now, because of loopholes and shelters in the tax code, a **quarter of all millionaires pay lower tax rates than millions of middle-class households**.” > > THE FACTS: It’s true that a minority of millionaires pay a lower tax rate than some lower-income people. On average, though, wealthy people pay taxes at a much higher rate than middle-income taxpayers. > Obama’s claim comes from a Congressional Research Service report that compared federal taxes paid by people making less than $100,000 with those paid by people making more than $1 million. About 10 percent of families with incomes under $100,000 paid more than 26.5 percent in federal income, payroll and corporate taxes. **And about a quarter of millionaire taxpayers paid a rate lower than that.** So in other words, Obama was correct. That’s telling 'em, Mr. Woodward! ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/17 "2012-01-26T13:40:09Z")
> [@](#): > > OBAMA: “On the day I took office, our auto industry was on the verge of collapse. Some even said we should let it die. With a million jobs at stake, I refused to let that happen. In exchange for help, we demanded responsibility. We got workers and automakers to settle their differences. We got the industry to retool and restructure. Today, General Motors is back on top as the world’s number one automaker. Chrysler has grown faster in the U.S. than any major car company. Ford is investing billions in U.S. plants and factories.” > > THE FACTS: He left out some key details. The bailout of General Motors and Chrysler began under Republican President George W. Bush. **Obama picked up the ball, earmarked more money, and finished the job**. But Ford never asked for a federal bailout and never got one. Did or did not Obama preside over the bailout, and is or is not GM back on top? Woodward is getting might picky on this one. As for Ford, who’s talking about Ford? What claim did Obama make about Ford that is untrue? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/18 "2012-01-26T13:55:17Z")
Yea, that fact check just seems to be offering background information, **IntelliQ**. I usually think of a “fact-check” as something that says whether a claim is factually true or not. The fact that Obama has sought to pass tax increases on oil companies before and couldn’t get it through congress doesn’t somehow make his desire to do so now “untrue”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/19 "2012-01-26T13:59:08Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Did or did not Obama preside over the bailout, and is or is not GM back on top? Woodward is getting might picky on this one. As for Ford, who’s talking about Ford? What claim did Obama make about Ford that is untrue? Obama is talking about Ford. It was in your quote. Come on. You don’t think it’s sloppy, at best, to include Ford in a statement about the Auto Bailout program since Ford received no bailout monies? Anyone reading that, who did not know otherwise, would think Ford was doing well because of the Bailout. ---
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687/20 "2012-01-26T13:59:45Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Yea, that fact check just seems to be offering background information, **IntelliQ**. I usually think of a “fact-check” as something that says whether a claim is factually true or not. The fact that Obama has sought to pass tax increases on oil companies before and couldn’t get it through congress doesn’t somehow make his desire to do so now “untrue”. I think what they’re saying is that he couldnt get many things through the congress when he had a super-majority, so making the same ole promises now with a divided house is logically unsound. Instinct tells me he’s just setting up republicans to take more blame when he doesnt achieve the same goals he failed on before. That’s just my opinion not a fact. Time will tell. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-fact-checker-for-the-state-of-the-union-and-gop-response/610687.md?page=2)