# Is there a federal requirement or mandate to provide a basic (1-12) education? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413 "2014-07-05T15:23:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/21 "2014-07-06T05:32:39Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I looked it up. As I speculated in post #5, the federal government enforces it by making it a condition of federal funding. The federal funding is essentially an incentive for districts to provide certain kinds of programs, and the funds must be used only for those programs. In California the federal funds get to the districts through the state. Often it’s not such a big percentage of total funding for a particular district (about 10% on average in California, I think), and usually the federal funds come with a lot of strings attached in terms of “accountability” (e.g., No Child Left Behind). Because most districts are usually strapped for educational funds, they need all the help they can get, and most usually need the federal programs anyway, so they’re not likely to reject the federal funds, and they adopt the programs and comply with accountability requirements. Even adult education gets federal funding (usually a higher percentage of its total), which comes about because of the Workforce Investment Act of 1998 (WIA), and in order to get that funding, adult education programs have to demonstrate that students make certain achievements (get a GED, or improve reading scores, etc.) So the federal government doesn’t technically require or mandate the programs that it funds, but it’s rare that the incentives it provides for districts to deliver them go ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/22 "2014-07-06T05:42:03Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Arkansas did in 1958, stayed closed for a year. That was only Pulaski county and only high schools. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/23 "2014-07-06T05:51:06Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > State schools get some federal funding. Not just that, but I believe NCLB was the first policy of its kind to have a **penalty** for non-compliance. I don’t remember the details, but up until NCLB, federal bills of this sort would always either give money for compliance, or no money for non-compliance. NCLB actually granted negative dollars for non-compliance, rather than being a binary money/no money thing. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/24 "2014-07-06T12:30:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Martin Hyde** : > > The German system has strong Federalism and some classes of laws cannot even be passed at the Federal level without the upper house (made up of representatives of the German states, typically the actual executive of those states and/or their appointments, and they have to vote in state blocs) say so, whereas in the American system the States get no direct say over Federal legislation. That makes the German system less extreme than the US one, not more. In the US, we have some classes of laws which cannot be passed at the federal level, at all, with no workaround. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/25 "2014-07-06T14:08:07Z")
I know a university professor in Passau, Bavaria whose wife cannot get a job in the civil service because she is not Catholic and whose children must go to Catholic schools because the government provides no other. That seems to me much more bizarre than any aspect of American federalism. ---
**Author:** ![PoppaSan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/poppasan/32/189_2.png) [@PoppaSan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoppaSan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/26 "2014-07-06T20:19:28Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > … > > Recently kindergarten start ages have changed as kindergarten has become more challenging, and school year start dates have been pushed back. When I was in school we started on Sept. 2, and anyone who was 5 by Oct. 2 could start kindergarten. Now schools start around the first of second week of August, and children need to be 5 by June to start kindergarten the following August. > > … Wisconsin passed a state law years back that public schools cannot start until September 1st. Most schools run into mid-June. 180 days of instruction per school year. This idea was pushed hard (and financed) by the tourism industry. Kindergarteners must be 5 before school starts. Many schools have a 4-year-old kindergarten option. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/27 "2014-07-07T05:26:39Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I know two parents, one of a MMR … Mumps, Measles, Rubella Maternal Mortality Rate Multi-Mode Receiver Massachusetts Military Reservation Mass Market Retailers Meet Me Room Multi Mode Radar Mismatch Repair Multi Mode Radar Master of Marketing Research Master Model Railroader Movimiento Manuela Ramos Moderated Multiple Regression Merchant Marine Reserve Main Machinery Room Memory-Mapped Register Money Market Rate Military Munitions Rule Marine Mammal Regulations All these, and many more, are listed by [acronymfinder.com](http://acronymfinder.com) as possible meanings of MMR, although the first (designating the combined vaccine for those diseases) seems to be by far the most commonly used. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/28 "2014-07-07T06:54:52Z")
Well, I know two parents too, one of a Moderated Multiple Regression, and the other of a Marine Mammal Regulation. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/29 "2014-07-07T13:58:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That makes the German system less extreme than the US one, not more. In the US, we have some classes of laws which cannot be passed at the federal level, at all, with no workaround. They have the same in Germany. There are basically three areas of legislation: areas of Federal prerogative, areas of State prerogative, and areas where it is shared, a large part of the work of the Bundesrat involves hammering out the details of the shared legislation. Legislation that isn’t part of the shared prerogative I believe does not require Bundesrat approval at all. The big difference is that specific area of shared legislation, where the governments of the States have to work in the Federal Council to come to an agreement. In the United States any “shared” area, we have the Supremacy Clause, so it just has to pass Congress and it’s obvious how the conflict is resolved–Federal law trumps State law. In Germany since each State’s Bundesrat delegation is actually part of its respective State government (they are not elected like Senators, but are often the German equivalent of that State’s Governor + his/her cabinet members or delegates) the State governments themselves are involved in passing this category of laws. They also have to be involved in any constitutional changes. But some areas of law the Bundesrat is not required to be involved at all. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/30 "2014-07-07T16:14:36Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > I thought it was until the age of 16 ( ? ) when they can legally drop out in most states? Its a case of Your Mileage May Vary — in most states Amish/OOD kids can leave at 14 and although things are changing it wasn’t very long ago that few advanced beyond roughly a 3rd Grade level as “us English” measure it. Since the establishment of Amish Schools and other changes within the community its better but its still the very rare exception to find one of their kids who could pass entrance into even a community college. In other words, even those who do go 12 years are far behind what the average American would call educated. Now on the other extreme, in most states a person cannot be removed for reasons of age until they hit 21. Usually when that comes to play is students with various disabilities or long stints out of the classroom for medical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/31 "2014-07-07T17:22:16Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > Its a case of Your Mileage May Vary — in most states Amish/OOD kids can leave at 14 and although things are changing it wasn’t very long ago that few advanced beyond roughly a 3rd Grade level as “us English” measure it. Since the establishment of Amish Schools and other changes within the community its better but its still the very rare exception to find one of their kids who could pass entrance into even a community college. In other words, even those who do go 12 years are far behind what the average American would call educated. Must be different in Pennsylvania - here in Indiana the Amish schooling leaves off at 14 but the Amish I’ve met here have all be literate, numerate, and certainly seem to have been educated beyond 3rd grade. Those who leave the Amish generally _don’t_ try for community college first, they get a _GED_ first, _then_ look into higher education if that’s what they want. There doesn’t seem to be much issue with them getting that GED either. Yes, they’re light in some areas due to the Amish focus on practicality over theory, and being anti-evolution, but the kids learn how to read and do some thinking so those who want to catch up with the outside world can do so with reasonable time and effort. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413/32 "2014-07-07T17:47:06Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > Or do states just do so? > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > There is such a requirement, but AFAIK it exists at the state level, not the federal level. > > I’m sure this seems bizarre to Europeans, mostly because it is bizarre, but our federal system is an artifact of history not of common sense. I guess I’m confused by the “just do so” rubric and the suggestion that it relates to federalism. Is there some external legal requirement upon European countries to provide 1-12 education, or do their legislatures “just do so”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-federal-requirement-or-mandate-to-provide-a-basic-1-12-education/692413.md?page=1)