# Is there a gay culture? Why should there be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426 "2008-01-13T23:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/1 "2008-01-13T23:50:50Z")
The University of Michigan has a new course on how to be gay. > [@](#): > > ENGLISH 317. Literature and Culture. > Section 002 — How to be Gay: Male Homosexuality and Initiation. > > Credits: (3; 2 in the half-term). > > Instructor(s): David M Halperin (halperin@umich.edu) > > Course Description: > > Just because you happen to be a gay man doesn’t mean that you don’t have to learn how to become one. Gay men do some of that learning on their own, but often we learn how to be gay from others, either because we look to them for instruction or because they simply tell us what they think we need to know, whether we ask for their advice or not. > > This course will examine the general topic of the role that initiation plays in the formation of gay male identity. We will approach it from three angles: (1) as a sub-cultural practice — subtle, complex, and difficult to theorize — which a small but significant body of work in queer studies has begun to explore; (2) as a theme in gay male writing; and (3) as a class project, since the course itself will constitute an experiment in the very process of initiation that it hopes to understand. > > In particular, we will examine a number of cultural artifacts and activities that seem to play a prominent role in learning how to be gay: Hollywood movies, grand opera, Broadway musicals, and other works of classical and popular music, as well as camp, diva-worship, drag, muscle culture, taste, style, and political activism. Are there a number of classically ‘gay’ works such that, despite changing tastes and generations, all gay men, of whatever class, race, or ethnicity, need to know them, in order to be gay? What is there about gay identity that explains the gay appropriation of these works? What do we learn about gay male identity by asking not who gay men are but what it is that gay men do or like? One aim of exploring these questions is to approach gay identity from the perspective of social practices and cultural identifications rather than from the perspective of gay sexuality itself. What can such an approach tell us about the sentimental, affective, or subjective dimensions of gay identity, including gay sexuality, that an exclusive focus on gay sexuality cannot? > > At the core of gay experience there is not only identification but disidentification. Almost as soon as I learn how to be gay, or perhaps even before, I also learn how not to be gay. I say to myself, ‘Well, I may be gay, but at least I’m not like that!’ Rather than attempting to promote one version of gay identity at the expense of others, this course will investigate the stakes in gay identifications and disidentifications, seeking ultimately to create the basis for a wider acceptance of the plurality of ways in which people determine how to be gay. > > Additional note. This course is not a basic introduction to gay male culture, but an exploration of certain issues arising from it. It assumes some background knowledge. Students wishing to inform themselves about gay men and gay culture in a preliminary way should enroll in an introductory course in lesbian/gay studies. Are certain types of movies, music, and books that gay men enjoy? I could see how gay men would prefer movies or books that feature gay characters, but why would a gay man be more likely to like opera, camp, or musicals? What would be the relation between same sex attraction and certain types of entertainment? [http://www.umich.edu/news/index.html?BG/317descr](http://www.umich.edu/news/index.html?BG/317descr) ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/2 "2008-01-13T23:54:39Z")
I want to know what the class project is. Yes I think there’s a gay culture. There is one because marginalized people can offer each other help and support so they stick together. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/3 "2008-01-14T00:00:03Z")
I think that parts of that class description are poorly written (or based on false assumptions), but yes, certainly there is a gay culture. As to why should there be, well, I don’t know if culture is a matter of should or should not. I might argue that football is a part of male culture in America, but I wouldn’t know where to begin arguing about whether it’s justified in being so. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/4 "2008-01-14T00:01:12Z")
So, if you try to attend the class quietly because you’re still closeted but get found out, is it an audit or an outed? My first impression is that someone’s at Michigan U is playing a prank. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/5 "2008-01-14T00:15:25Z")
Seems like the good taxpayers of Michigan are being robbed. Not all that unusual, I suppose, but still. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/6 "2008-01-14T00:19:22Z")
Whenever there are groups of people with things in common, cultures develop. So while not every gay guy is probably into whatever can be termed “gay culture,” I’m sure there is one and there is no reason there shouldn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/7 "2008-01-14T00:19:55Z")
Let me put this on a personal level. I knew I was attracted to other boys at the age of 5, but didn’t act on those feelings until I was in college. In the intervening years I didn’t know any openly-gay kids (nobody was openly-gay back then) and I didn’t know that there was such a thing as gay culture. Yet . . . I developed, totally on my own, an appreciation of opera (including operetta), broadway musicals, certain female actresses and singers. I couldn’t get enough of the movies of Bette, Joan, Judy and Marilyn. I also had a natural flair for design, both interior and fashion. Now I didn’t learn any of this from anyone, but these interests just grew in me spontaneously. I had no idea that they were part of any gay culture, and when I finally came out in college, was quite surprised that other gay guys had the same interests. There have been many, many books written about this subject, each with its own theories. All I know is that it is a commonality that crosses generations and geography. And I’ve known gay men who came out later in life, who are trying their darnedest to get caught up with the cultural references. And by the way, there are several gay sub-cultures, e.g. leather culture, “boi” culture, etc. And why should there be gay cultures? For the simple reason that there are gay people, and our life experiences aren’t always the same as yours. For the same reasons that there should be Black cultures, Jewish cultures, Asian cultures, teen cultures, etc. And of course there are Black gay culture, Jewish gay culture, etc. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/8 "2008-01-14T00:26:55Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Seems like the good taxpayers of Michigan are being robbed. Not all that unusual, I suppose, but still. ☹ [/QUOTE] Including the gay taxpayers? Is there any reason why our culture and history should not be taught in a public university, along with those of other cultures? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/9 "2008-01-14T00:33:15Z")
Human beings pile many layers of learned behavior on top of our natural impulses. There have always been men who were attracted to other men, but this attraction has played out in differently in different cultures and different times. Almost nothing about modern gay culture is a biological necessity. Most of its elements are completely arbitrary. But most elements of most cultural practices are arbitrary. Trying to find a causal link between Judy Garland and homosexual identity is like trying to find a causal link between John Wayne and heterosexual identity. But the arbitrary nature of culture doesn’t mean that it’s not worth studying. “Gay Culture” is a thing just a much as “The Protestant Reformation” is a thing. FWIW it sounds like a good class. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/10 "2008-01-14T00:37:42Z")
[QUOTE=panache45] And why should there be gay cultures? For the simple reason that there are gay people, and our life experiences aren’t always the same as yours. For the same reasons that there should be Black cultures, Jewish cultures, Asian cultures, teen cultures, etc. And of course there are Black gay culture, Jewish gay culture, etc. [/QUOTE] I guess I didn’t mean why should there be a gay culture (even thought that is what I wrote), but why should there a gay culture that includes so many things that do not appear to have any connection to being gay? Why is gay men liking opera or camp any different from people who prefer redheads liking detective novels (as an example)? Why is about having same sex attraction that would make someone like certain entertainment? You stated that you were not involved in any sort of cultural learning you just liked these things. I really do not see any connection. What are some of the theories? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/11 "2008-01-14T00:37:58Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] What would be the relation between same sex attraction and certain types of entertainment? [/QUOTE] Statistically, lesbians/gays tend to like entertainment that tends to be favored by the opposite gender more than the other members of their gender does. It does make sense I think, since both sexual attraction and entertainment involve one’s taste in beauty, aesthetics, whatever term you want to use. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/12 "2008-01-14T00:38:26Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] The University of Michigan has a new course on how to be gay. [/quote] Of course, that’s not what it is at all. Unless Michigan has gotten VERY, uh, progressive! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/13 "2008-01-14T00:40:19Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Seems like the good taxpayers of Michigan are being robbed. Not all that unusual, I suppose, but still. ☹ [/QUOTE] Uh … gay culture has been major artistic and political force over the last 50 years. Plus this course seems to be doing a good job of exploring how people construct their cultural identities, something that’s applicable to many groups beyond homosexuals. What does it mean to be black? What does it mean to be a nerd? What does it mean to be Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/14 "2008-01-14T00:43:19Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Of course, that’s not what it is at all. Unless Michigan has gotten VERY, uh, progressive! [/QUOTE] That is the name of the course. I think it means culturally gay. Sort like the quote from Simone de Beauvoir “One is not born a woman, but becomes one.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/15 "2008-01-14T00:46:40Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Why is gay men liking opera or camp any different from people who prefer redheads liking detective novels (as an example)? [/QUOTE] There is no difference. If large numbers of red heads all started liking similar things then we would have courses on red-headed culture at our universities. > [@](#): > > Why is about having same sex attraction that would make someone like certain entertainment? It’s arbitrary. It’s like asking “What is it about the climate of Mexico that makes someone like accordion music?” The answer is “Nothing.” And yet, accordions figure prominently in Mexican music! ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/16 "2008-01-14T00:48:59Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I guess I didn’t mean why should there be a gay culture (even thought that is what I wrote), but why should there a gay culture that includes so many things that do not appear to have any connection to being gay? Why is gay men liking opera or camp any different from people who prefer redheads liking detective novels (as an example)? Why is about having same sex attraction that would make someone like certain entertainment? You stated that you were not involved in any sort of cultural learning you just liked these things. I really do not see any connection. What are some of the theories? [/QUOTE] These are some of the questions that would be answered in this course. Take the course and report back to us. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/17 "2008-01-14T00:52:31Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] That is the name of the course. I think means culturally gay. [/QUOTE] The name is, of course, a joke. It’s a play off the old slur that homosexuals are on the prowl to recruit innocent boys and “initiate” them into the homosexual lifestyle. But its also an acknowledgement that modern gayness is a cultural construct and “presenting” as gay often goes beyond acknowledging your attraction towards men. It involves adopting certain cultural and aesthetic values as well. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/18 "2008-01-14T00:59:48Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] The University of Michigan has a new course on how to be gay. [/QUOTE] With a username like that, I don’t think you need bother enrolling. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/19 "2008-01-14T01:00:56Z")
[QUOTE=panache45] These are some of the questions that would be answered in this course. Take the course and report back to us. [/QUOTE] AA is just to far to drive. And I am not a student at UM. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/20 "2008-01-14T01:08:26Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] That is the name of the course. I think it means culturally gay. Sort like the quote from Simone de Beauvoir “One is not born a woman, but becomes one.” [/QUOTE] That’s what it means, stated in a catchy way. From the OP, it sort of sounded like you were taking it literally. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426.md?page=2)