# Is there a gay culture? Why should there be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426 "2008-01-13T23:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/41 "2008-01-14T15:45:39Z")
That course description seems light on the lesbianism. Aren’t they interested in drag kings and home repair? ---
**Author:** ![supervenusfreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@supervenusfreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/supervenusfreak)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/42 "2008-01-14T16:12:02Z")
[QUOTE=Cat Fight] That course description seems light on the lesbianism. Aren’t they interested in drag kings and home repair? [/QUOTE] Historically, lesbians have always been ignored. A lesbian culture study is far past due. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/43 "2008-01-14T16:49:24Z")
[QUOTE=e-logic] Perhaps it’s the difference between “gay” and “Gay”… where “gay” simply means “I am sexually attracted to members of my own gender”, and “Gay” is “I consciously affirm and embrance the collected norms that currently attach themselves to this particular cultural subset, defined substantially (but not wholly) by my particular sexual preferences” [/QUOTE] I essentially took this class (it was called something different) at my college, and this is pretty much it. There’s a lot of sociological writing about what it means to be Gay, and there are at least a few people who claim (among other things) that Gay, as an identity, did not exist prior to a particular point in time (World War II for example). Which makes sense in a way–although same-sex attraction has certainly always existed, the concept of being same-sex oriented possibly has not. I don’t think people would call you a Bad Gay Man if you didn’t adhere to the cultural practices–there were more than a few gay men in the class who disliked the cultural stereotypes and really didn’t approve of this distinction–but I can see where it comes from. If someone here is a Queer theorist, I’ll defer to their knowledge, but that’s how it was explained to me. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/44 "2008-01-14T17:13:14Z")
This one wouldn’t even be in the top 10 of peculiar college courses that I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/45 "2008-01-14T17:15:26Z")
[QUOTE=unconventional] I was alluding to the nerd culture as an academic study track. Studies designed to learn about a specific cultural group are a result of the group not being represented, underrepresented, or misrepresented in the dominant culture. Discrimination and some form of oppression are always the catalyst for the misrepresentation. [/QUOTE] Not necessarily. Sometimes things just get overlooked. Here’s an example: My wife is a music history professor at UCLA. She teaches a course she created called “Getting Medieval: Medievalism and Music in Popular Culture”. It’s not about the actual music of the real middle ages (she covers that in other courses) but about how THE IDEA of the middle ages has been used by artists and composers up to the present time. She has big sections on Wagner’s _Ring_, film music from _Snow White_ through _Lord of the Rings_, and the early music revival of the 1970’s. It’s a general education class, which means that it’s not intended for music majors – it’s for students studying other things who need to take a humanities course to satisfy their degree requirements. When she first proposed the class six years ago the reaction from the chair of the department was lukewarm. “Ugh, the middle ages? Who cares about that dry old dusty stuff? Oh, well. If you really want to. We’ll put you in the smallest classroom.” People were sitting in the aisles. It turns out that a whole lot of people care very much about the middle ages, but they tend to be engineering or science students – nerds and geeks who play World of Warcraft and belong to the SCA. So offering a class that teaches them about how the stuff they love actually has very deep roots in western culture turned out to be hugely popular. She regularly fills the second largest hall in the music building. It’s not that the nerds were being overlooked because the faculty though their music was worthless. The department as a whole is very open to new ideas. One of the professors regularly gives papers on electronic dance music, for example. It was just a blind spot they had because if you’re a professor of the humanities you mostly deal with humanities students, not engineering or science students. Sometimes things get overlooked because a group has been politically marginalized. But other times something gets overlooked simply because no one has thought about looking at it yet. I think it’s wrong to approach gay studies or women’s studies as some sort of political payback: “Well, they’ve been oppressed so now they deserve their time in the sun.” :rolleyes: How cultural artifacts are created is \*interesting \* regardless of the politics involved. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/46 "2008-01-14T17:18:53Z")
[QUOTE=e-logic] 2) insisting that _unless and until_ a person formally adopts the traits and habits of that culture they are “not really gay”. [/quote] Nobody is saying that. There’s a great deal of humor in the course description, the type of humor that is, itself, part of gay culture. [QUOTE=e-logic] Perhaps it’s the difference between “gay” and “Gay”… where “gay” simply means “I am sexually attracted to members of my own gender”, and “Gay” is “I consciously affirm and embrance the collected norms that currently attach themselves to this particular cultural subset, defined substantially (but not wholly) by my particular sexual preferences”. [/QUOTE] That’s exactly right. Or the distinction could be “homosexual” vs. “gay.” Consider a Black baby adopted by white parents and growing up in a stereotypically white environment. At some point the parents might decide to introduce the child to it Black heritage . . . Black history, culture, music, food . . . and then let the child, as he matures, decide how relevant this heritage is to his own life. It’s no different with us, except with many of us there seem to be certain things that just appear on their own, which I can’t explain. And of course, we have to do it ourselves, without parental guidance. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/47 "2008-01-14T17:23:27Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Overlapping constellations of creative activities like filksinging, roleplaying games, cosplay, and fanfic? [/QUOTE] Not to mention the nerdish love of neologisms. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/48 "2008-01-14T18:36:24Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Not to mention the nerdish love of neologisms. [/QUOTE] w00t! ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/49 "2008-01-14T18:58:59Z")
Yeah, if you know what filksinging, roleplaying games, cosplay, and fanfic are, you’re probably already a nerd. I remember one time feeling superior to some nerd who said he enjoyed WOD LARPs. What a nerd, I thought. Then I realized that if I understood what he said that meant I was pretty nerdy myself. As Jesus said, first remove the Monster Manual from your own eye, then you will be able to see clearly to remove the Camarilla sourcebook from your brother’s eye. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/50 "2008-01-14T19:38:36Z")
This class isn’t new, although I’ve had at least one person show me a recent article stating that it was. It might be revamped or something, but the “How to be Gay” course has been at U of M at least as far back as my freshman year (2002). I didn’t take it, but I have several friends who did. It’s basically what people are saying it should be - an examination of “gay culture,” the varoius things that comprise it, and how valid the idea is in the first place. It seemed like it shared a lot in common with a couple of Women’s Studies courses that I took. In retrospect I wish I had taken it - despite being gay, I have very little connection to most of what comprises gay culture, and it would have been interesting to learn more. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/51 "2008-01-14T20:58:29Z")
There’s something about this thread I just don’t like. I’ve loved Broadway musicals since I was a small boy, and I’m not gay. Nowhere does this possibility even seem be considered. Ed ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/52 "2008-01-14T22:27:28Z")
[QUOTE=suranyi] I’ve loved Broadway musicals since I was a small boy, and I’m not gay. Nowhere does this possibility even seem be considered. [/QUOTE] Except in post #23 where I talk about how I’ve loved Broadway musicals since I was a small boy, and I’m not gay … . :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/53 "2008-01-14T22:56:46Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Except in post #23 where I talk about how I’ve loved Broadway musicals since I was a small boy, and I’m not gay … . :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] A fellow adherent! You’re right, I missed your post. Sorry. Ed ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/54 "2008-01-15T04:09:28Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Overlapping constellations of creative activities like filksinging, roleplaying games, cosplay, and fanfic? [/QUOTE] I am 100% certain that I will regret having asked, but in the interest of fighting my own ignorance, what are filksinging and cosplay? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/55 "2008-01-15T04:13:33Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] I am 100% certain that I will regret having asked, but in the interest of fighting my own ignorance, what are filksinging and cosplay? [/QUOTE] [Filk](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filk_music) [Cosplay](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosplay) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/56 "2008-01-15T04:16:34Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] I am 100% certain that I will regret having asked, but in the interest of fighting my own ignorance, what are filksinging and cosplay? [/QUOTE] A filk is a song, in this context based around your particular nerdish interest. Think folk music but swap the cowboy hats for braces. Cosplay - the cos is short for costume. Basically dressing up as characters from your particular nerdish interest. See, it could have been worse. slash fiction! ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/57 "2008-01-15T05:03:31Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] A filk is a song, in this context based around your particular nerdish interest. Think folk music but swap the cowboy hats for braces. Cosplay - the cos is short for costume. Basically dressing up as characters from your particular nerdish interest. See, it could have been worse. slash fiction! [/QUOTE] Thanks for the info, **Revenant Threshold** and **jayjay**. The crisis continues. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/58 "2008-01-15T05:32:28Z")
If I only audit the class, do I still get a toaster? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/59 "2008-01-15T22:33:17Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] The University of Michigan has a new course on how to be gay. [/QUOTE] And they wonder why attendance in college is dropping. When a college put bullshit like that in its curriculum, it’s a sure sign that they have lost credibility. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426/60 "2008-01-15T22:37:38Z")
[QUOTE=Clothahump] And they wonder why attendance in college is dropping. When a college put bullshit like that in its curriculum, it’s a sure sign that they have lost credibility. [/QUOTE] Hehehehehehe! Oh, that’s too funny! **Clothahump** complaining about someone losing credibility through bullshit! I’m DYIN’ here! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gay-culture-why-should-there-be/433426.md?page=4)