# Is there a gender-neutral substitute for "his or her"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903 "2012-06-12T12:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/21 "2012-06-29T14:30:51Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > An Argument for Generic Singular “They” > > I wrote this up quite casually, but I do have an M.A. in Ling from Univ. of CA. and did some work in this area of the field. > > [http://tapu-tapu-tapu.blogspot.com/2012/05/argument-for-generic-singular-they.html](http://tapu-tapu-tapu.blogspot.com/2012/05/argument-for-generic-singular-they.html) “Even then, Canadian, gay, whatever, you’ve marked yourself as kind of prissy.” This line reads as bigoted, and poisons whatever other point you were trying to make. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/22 "2012-06-29T14:43:08Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > Heck, we never should have let “you” become singular … > [@Powers](#): > > This line reads as bigoted, and poisons whatever other point you were trying to make. So, if thou hadst thy way, thou wouldst need to decide whether to say “thou wast trying to make” or “thou wert trying to make” in that last sentence. Fortunately, other speakers of English have agreed that it’s not worthwhile to have to remember all those extra irregular verb forms. Thou mayst thank thy god for that. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/23 "2012-06-29T14:46:46Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > “Even then, Canadian, gay, whatever, you’ve marked yourself as kind of prissy.” > > This line reads as bigoted, and poisons whatever other point you were trying to make. > Powers &8^] I’m not seeing it. Can you explain further why you think it’s bigoted, bearing in mind that tapu is, I believe, a lesbian? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/24 "2012-06-29T16:15:04Z")
> [@moronpolitics](#): > > Someone picked up the money and then THEY left in a yellow car. > > A person took my dog and I hope THEY decide to return it. > > When someone loses an item it is kept in the lost and found for a month before THEIR property is donated to charity. > > In all of these examples it is obvious the subject is singular just as the speaker/writer is a single person but THEY used the INDEFINITE PLURAL to replace “his or her” or “he or she”. I posit that YOU have heard this usage a million times and hopefully giving it a name, to wit, “the indefinite plural” will help formalize this rule. Tell you local school marm. Yeah, but that sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/25 "2012-07-03T00:41:49Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > So, if thou hadst thy way, thou wouldst need to decide whether to say “thou wast trying to make” or “thou wert trying to make” in that last sentence. Fortunately, other speakers of English have agreed that it’s not worthwhile to have to remember all those extra irregular verb forms. Thou mayst thank thy god for that. We already remember multiple verb forms for each verb; what’s one or two more? Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/26 "2012-07-03T00:42:52Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I’m not seeing it. Can you explain further why you think it’s bigoted, bearing in mind that tapu is, I believe, a lesbian? Leaving aside the question of how I was supposed to know that, painting both gay people and Canadians as nigh-universally “prissy” strikes me as quite obviously problematic. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/27 "2012-07-03T15:36:06Z")
There’s already a meme “Gay, or just British?” Seems a variant. “Gay, or just Canadian?” ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/28 "2012-07-03T15:39:15Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > Leaving aside the question of how I was supposed to know that, painting both gay people and Canadians as nigh-universally “prissy” strikes me as quite obviously problematic. > Powers &8^] Or a reference to the fact that the former group is known for using female pronouns regardless of sex and the second is famous for a higher than normal standard of politeness. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/29 "2012-07-05T15:43:55Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Or a reference to the fact that the former group is known for using female pronouns regardless of sex and the second is famous for a higher than normal standard of politeness. Hardly an improvement, implying that politeness is “prissy”. Also, it makes for an odd definition of “normal” to imply that an entire country is on one side of the dividing line. The only context in which I could possibly view Canadians as overly polite is in comparison to certain elements of U.S. culture. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/30 "2012-07-05T15:48:02Z")
Well, uh, ok then. I’ll alert everyone who makes jokes about Canadians being polite that Powers doesn’t think it’s a real stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/31 "2012-07-05T15:49:54Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > “Even then, Canadian, gay, whatever, you’ve marked yourself as kind of prissy.” > > This line reads as bigoted, and poisons whatever other point you were trying to make. > Powers &8^] It’s called parody, or humor if you prefer… Actually never mind. You don’t have it. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/32 "2012-07-05T15:53:49Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > There’s already a meme “Gay, or just British?” Seems a variant. “Gay, or just Canadian?” Yes! That. It’s a form of humor–parody-- that is sophisticated, and really anti-bigotry. It says we all know these stereotypes exist; let’s acknowledge them, show our power over them, and move on from there. I find there are very few who don’t get this. But once they don’t, they won’t. I’m not sure what the determining factor(s) could be… ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/33 "2012-07-06T15:25:02Z")
Insulting stereotypes are still insulting. And I’ve never heard this “Canadians are prissy” one before. I’ve found that “I was just joking” and “Can’t you take a joke” are the last refuges of the boorish. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/34 "2012-07-06T22:56:19Z")
Eh, bite me. Humor is a matter of taste. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/35 "2012-07-09T23:37:04Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > Humor is a matter of taste. Well, that’s at least an improvement over your previous statements on the topic. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/36 "2012-07-10T01:00:46Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > If he had killed the man, would you expect the paper to say, “his neighbor’s husband,”? Honestly, I would assume that the fact that it is his neighbor’s wife being mentioned in such a way that there was some significance to the relationship. Like a man was secretly involved in a homosexual relationship with his neighbor. His neighbor’s wife found out about the relationship and put an end to it. The man went berserk and killed his neighbor’s wife. ---
**Author:** ![tavaritz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71e660/32.png) [@tavaritz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tavaritz)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/37 "2012-11-10T00:21:51Z")
> [@Cheryl44](#): > > In English, the male pronouns (he/his/him) are both masculine and neuter. If you are unsure of a person’s gender, it is grammatically correct to use _he_ to refer to the person. No they are not: They/their/them is proper English when you don’t know the gender of the singular agent. But alas, most americans don’t believe this as their schoolmarms have told them something else. As a Finn I personally use she/hers/her reflecting the Swedish use. We in Finland don’t have the problem as our version (hän, etc.[1]) isn’t gender specific at all. [1] The list of various declinations is long and even controversial so I’m not going to present it here. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/38 "2012-11-12T16:53:48Z")
> [@tavaritz](#): > > They/their/them is proper English when you don’t know the gender of the singular agent. But alas, most americans don’t believe this as their schoolmarms have told them something else. Yeah yeah yeah. To the extent there is such a thing as “proper” English, the idea that “they” is singular is only gaining the barest of acceptance for formal writing. It grates not because “schoolmarms” took a silly and unnecessary stand against it, but because they scan to most native English readers as plural. “You”, another plural that has acquired the singular sense as well, has had centuries of steady use and disuse of its antecedent (“thou”). “They” has had centuries of singular use, but not exclusive and not steady. We still have “it” and “he” and “she” and all three are still in use, unlike “thou”. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/39 "2012-11-12T17:06:39Z")
It scans that way because of schoolmarms. ---
**Author:** ![Freakenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@Freakenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freakenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903/40 "2012-11-12T20:37:36Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > And it’s not correct to say that “the male pronouns (he/his/him) are both masculine and neuter.” They have no gender: what you can say is that the pronouns (he/his/him) can be used to refer to male people, male animals, and people of unknown gender – and you should also say that many people do not like using he/his/him for people of unknown gender, and prefer using they/their/them instead. That’s so unfair. Females have their own pronoun, why can’t We males have one too? > [@Powers](#): > > Heck, we never should have let “you” become singular; doing it for “they” would just be compounding the error. ‘We’? That would be…? > [@tavaritz](#): > > No they are not: They/their/them is proper English when you don’t know the gender of the singular agent. Since You are a Finn Your assertion is quite bold, I should imagine. > [@](#): > > We in Finland don’t have the problem as our version (hän, etc.[1]) isn’t gender specific at all. > > [1] The list of various declinations is long and even controversial so I’m not going to present it here. True, but in informal language the word ‘_se_’ is used mostly ( meaning ‘it’ ) and it indeed is the original word. ( ‘Hän’ was actually used when a person spoke about a third person speaking about oneself ( like in _‘it said he wouldn’t come here’_ ). It’s pronounced like ‘hand’ without ‘d’, so let’s all start using _'han_’ and maybe in a few decades there won’t be any problems… ( Also, I’m not aware of any controversy or at least can’t remember any at the moment ). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/624903.md?page=3)