# Is there a gene for tameness ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gene-for-tameness/663165 "2013-07-10T19:33:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gene-for-tameness/663165/21 "2013-07-12T13:59:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Our Golden had gotten a bit smarter with age, but we had puppies who were downright stupid, especially compared to our border collie mix. Never quite understood why people say one dog is smarter than another because they all seem capable of the same stuff - fetch stick, bark at stranger, beg for treats etc. But what would I know. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gene-for-tameness/663165/22 "2013-07-12T14:04:51Z")
“Human beings are, and will always remain, _wild_ animals.” Charles Darwin. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gene-for-tameness/663165/23 "2013-07-12T15:25:16Z")
> [@](#): > > though the geological evidence shows that it takes a million years to make a new wild species, we know that the various domesticated animals have been created in a very much shorter time. For example, the ancestors of the grey- > hound and the bulldog often thousand years ago would probably have been quite indistinguishable. If then man’s characteristics could be similarly remoulded in so short a time, the whole future of history might be radically different. ~ Charles Galton Darwin Very interesting read on breeding humans by Charles Galton Darwin (nb I’m in no way condoning his views, just providing info) link opens .pdf [http://75.72.244.165/Sundark/cgdarwin.pdf](http://75.72.244.165/Sundark/cgdarwin.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gene-for-tameness/663165/24 "2013-07-12T16:24:57Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Never quite understood why people say one dog is smarter than another because they all seem capable of the same stuff - fetch stick, bark at stranger, beg for treats etc. But what would I know. You must never have owned dogs. We got this thing called a Yuppie Puppie machine, which held treats which could be gotten by the dog by placing a paw on the lever. Ki, our border collie, figured this thing out in under a second. When one of our puppies got career changed he could be given treats, and we tried him on the machine. (He was a Lab.) He never figured it out, and Ki even showed him. Since intelligence is at least partly genetic, it is no surprise that different breeds get selected for different levels of intelligence also. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gene-for-tameness/663165/25 "2013-07-12T18:08:38Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > All here buddy. Those foxes are super adorable, BTW. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoB0pdhxfZs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoB0pdhxfZs) > > Apparently the breeding program was set up away from the eyes of the government - can anyone have thought that there would be no political implication ? If I was a dictator this is exactly the sort of research I would be wanting to fund. Efforts of Pavlovian condition on human populations would be left in the dust by something developed from this. There were political implications but not like that. The project head was a proponent of that foreign Darwinism and Mendelism and it had been a problem, in a time when native Lysenkoism was all the rage. Basically neo-Larmarckism, except Lamarck didn’t kill thousands/millions of people. They basically misrepresented the goals of their research to avoid a crackdown. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gene-for-tameness/663165/26 "2013-07-12T23:35:36Z")
I don’t remember which book I read it in, but tameness is related to juvenile characteristics. Dogs are basically wolves that stay perpetually juvenile, and humans are monkeys that stay perpetually juvenile. The traits of tame dogs like floppy ears are related somehow to being juvenile. So humans are already to apes what dogs are to wolves. Then again, apes vary. Baboons are assholes, bonobos tend to be fairly civil. I don’t know which species is more peaceful though, bonobos or humans. According to Steven Pinker the levels of violence have dropped drastically in the world in the last few hundred years, almost a 97% drop since the middle ages. Genes haven’t changed much in the last few generations. What has changed has been technology and governments. The government of Japan in 1920 is not the government in 1980, despite the fact that genetics in Japan barely changed. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gene-for-tameness/663165/27 "2013-07-13T00:54:43Z")
Neoteny. The video upthread talks about that, too. The scientist may have written something about it. I don’t know about bonobos but I expect that their peacefulness is overstated sometimes. Chimps are certainly masters of murder. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gene-for-tameness/663165/28 "2013-07-13T14:44:51Z")
> [@](#): > > There were political implications but not like that. The project head was a proponent of that foreign Darwinism and Mendelism and it had been a problem, in a time when native Lysenkoism was all the rage. Basically neo-Larmarckism, except Lamarck didn’t kill thousands/millions of people. They basically misrepresented the goals of their research to avoid a crackdown. I see thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-gene-for-tameness/663165.md?page=1)