OK. Never mind. It was the revisited version. Bad memory.
I made the same comment about Cecil’s description. His finagling with the definition of the word God in order to prove God is exactly the same thing. He’s managed to prove there is something that isn’t what most people think of by the word God.
And then from there, he asserts that therefore there is no God like people normally think of it.
I think he screws it up both directions.
I won’t say Cecil Adams “screws it up both directions”. Perhaps, the equivocal explanation of God of his is evidence of his agnostic state of mind. I have read on Wikipedia about Cecil Adams, saying that he went to a Catholic school when he was younger. There is a possibility, one can argue, that Cecil Adams is trying to inject his point-of-view on the matter, and this point-of-view may reflect his agnosticism or weak atheism, rather than pure atheism. Then again, I am only saying this, because I observe that Charles Darwin, described on Wikipedia as an “ardent theist” who laid the foundation of evolutionary theory, defines his state of mind as “agnostic”. Perhaps, his agnosticism is a reflection of his state of mind that is currently in conflict with two seemingly opposing viewpoints – is God the creator of the universe, or can everything be explained without the means of a god? Returning to Cecil Adams, I think one may empathize with him, because if he is human like he claims he is and knows everything that like he claims he does, then he should also claim that he is capable of human failure, thereby irrational thinking. On the other hand, my opinions in this post are based on the assumption that Cecil Adams’ explanation may be inaccurate. There is also a possibility that Cecil Adams may be right after all, and I have been misinterpreting his words.
Back to the original post by Cyningablod and Cecil’s “God (revisited)” reply:
Aquinas cited what he considered 5 valid proofs of God’s existance, and didn’t pretend to be the author of any of them.
The God that this proof finds is not a warm and fuzzy God; that is outside the scope of the argument. The First Cause argument shows the necessity of a cause unlike any other cause in our experience, a cause that had to be at the beginning, but was itself uncaused. “This is what we would call God.”
But back to the impersonal, ‘mechanistic’ aspect - this is truer than many people realize in Aristotle’s philosophy. His Prime Mover (also an argument that Aquinas cites) not only does not involve ‘Himself’ in creation beyond the first movement; ‘He’ doesn’t even actively give the first push. The first movement is created by an attraction of prime matter to the Prime Mover. It seems to say that if the Prime Mover had to invest himself so much in starting creation, that would show a need, a dependency, a weakness in this great power.
Although many lesser theologians attempted to prove the Trinity, Aquinas firmly placed that doctrine in the realm of revealed truth that can not possibly be arrived at by human reasoning.
Over to Aristotle’s writings on errors in logic; Cyningablod’s entire post was a long ad hominem <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem> attack. Suppositions about Cecil’s age and fears are irrelevant to his reasoning. Attack the argument, not the person.
I do not believe there is a God, I absolutely KNOW that there is. I have asked for proof, I mean literally prayed hard…begging God for proof. And each time I got proof! I am not saying God appeared in front of me saying “here I am” I am just saying, I received subtle hints of proof, but each time it was clearly obvious that I was indeed receiving the proof I requested! I also spoke to my mother the day after she died, and she told me as well. (I know, don’t start calling me a nutcase, it does sound funny…but I spoke to her and saw her, after she died). I was also contacted by her again, a few years later…but the 2nd time she reached me through a guy. Some stranger who contacted me on a website I used to frequent. Of course I asked him to prove he was indeed speaking to my mom, and he told me several things to prove it. I would be glad to get into the whole story…if someone is interested, let me know!
I’m interested in whether you gave your personal details or money to the guy.
I’d also be interested in whether the guy was able to establish some independently verifiable facts that were not in the public record (say, if your mother had a diary now in your possession).
Finally, I’d be interested if God would give you the solutions to any of these, given that he’s omniscient. That would strike me as an adequately disprovable method, assuming you don’t avail yourself with hundreds of maths books or post only the solution and not the proof.
The difficulty in saying that God only reveals himself personally is that you’re putting him to the test as much as anyone else (such as an amputee asking to be healed), you just have a much lower criterion for believing.
I do not believe there is a God, I absolutely KNOW that there is. I have asked for proof, I mean literally prayed hard…begging God for proof. And each time I got proof! I am not saying God appeared in front of me saying “here I am” I am just saying, I received subtle hints of proof, but each time it was clearly obvious that I was indeed receiving the proof I requested! I also spoke to my mother the day after she died, and she told me as well. (I know, don’t start calling me a nutcase, it does sound funny…but I spoke to her and saw her, after she died). I was also contacted by her again, a few years later…but the 2nd time she reached me through a clairaudient, basically some stranger who contacted me on a website I used to frequent. Of course I asked him to prove he was indeed speaking to my mom, and he told me several things to prove it, things that would’ve been impossible for this guy to know. I actually almost fell out of my chair, it was indeed real.
But thats all I will say, I would be glad to get into the whole story…if someone is interested, let me know! But I don’t tell people unless they are genuinely interested to hear it.
I gave the guy not one penny, or any type of compensation…
AND ABSOLUTELY, YES! The guy told me about my sister who had died, she was speaking to him too…he described my dead grandparents, and their physical impairments to a tee (My grandpa walked hunched over due to an accident years prior, and grandma’s crippled arthritic hands) Other small things like that. But the most compelling thing by far…
Two weeks before this, I was visiting my boyfriends uncle, in hospital as he lay dying.
He died as I stood next to his bed. THAT very moment I got a strong whiff of the perfume my mother used to wear. I thought ‘hmmm’ but thats all. THEN, two weeks later while talking to this stranger on the internet…I asked him for more proof it was my mom he was speaking to (yes more after the grandma grandpa thing) HE SAID THIS…**
“your mother said ‘you were recently standing around a hospital bed’…she wants to know, what you smelled at that moment”**
That is the part I almost fell out of my chair.
Good example of cold reading - he didn’t ask you if you smelled perfume; he asked you what you smelled. If you were in a hospital there is a good chance something would come to mind if you were asked if you remembered smelling anything, regardless of the circumstances of the visit.
For more on cold readings, see: How come TV psychics seem so convincing? - The Straight Dope
I think that example is less likely to be cold reading, more likely to be hot reading. Seems to me the most parsimonious explanation would be that this stranger knew her in meatspace, and contacted her through this web site she had frequented.
But still, the explanation of cold reading is way more likely than a supernatural explanation.
pati12812, it’s not just that your anecdotes don’t make a convincing case to us about the existence of God, they’re so poor that they shouldn’t convince you either.
NO! That would indeed be true, if I hadn’t smelled my mothers perfume, strongly, at that very moment. The smell was VERY strong, and that alone was pretty eerie. Then for him to say that tells me my mom was indeed there in hospital and she knew I smelled her perfume! That is why she picked that question to ask me. If I had just smelled the usual hospital smells, the whole thing would have no point, and my mother wouldn’t have used that to prove it was her! (The fact that is a hospital is irrellevent, this has nothing to. do with the fact he said I had been in a hospital setting, replace hospital with anyplace I happened to be that I smelled her perfume).
So yes, while this guy could’ve been throwing things out there, in ‘cold reading’ fashion…he could’ve indeed thrown out ‘hospital’ and got lucky! But the fact that my moms perfume waifed by my nose as I stood there, and this stranger knew that, I tend to believe that my mother told him to say that, to prove to me she was indeed trying to speak to me!
My mom did have a reason for contacting me, there was a pool in our backyard and my son was just learning to walk at the time. She was worried about our back screen door, that didn’t latch mcorrectly. She had to let me know! Yes the guy eventually told me that too. And the last thing he said was, she wants me to know she speaks to me all the time, and I pass it off as my conscience speaking to me.
The stranger may have known me, but in no way could’ve he known I smelled my mothers perfume in hospital that day. I told not one person.
And as for this being proof enough of gods existence…it absolutely is to me. I don’t try to convince others with it, it is just food for thought!
Did he ask you if you smelled perfume, or did he ask you what you smelled? Did he know that you had been at the hospital (for any reason) before he asked you that question? If you are around someone dying it is quite likely you will smell something, so that makes it a good candidate for a cold reading question - how do you know that he knew in advance that it was perfume you smelled (or imagined you smelled)? If it had been something else, then you would still have been amazed that he “knew” to ask you.
1st of all no…he did not know I had been at a hospital. And here is the main thing, even if he took a shot in the dark and asked about what I smelled in the hospital, and while I was there I smelled regular hospital smells, that would’ve told me nothing! I wouldn’t have been amazed at that! So what if I smelled alcohol or a bed pan! The key in this whole thing was my mothers perfume! When I smelled it, I got chills down my spine…she knew I had smelled it, and that is the clue she told him to say!
I never said the guy knew it was perfume, he was clearly just relaying the question to me, the question he asked was not intended to lead me into anything…he did not even know the answer would be. As a matter of fact, if asked to guess what smell I was go
ing to remember smelling…I guarantee perfume wouldn’t even been a guess.
And I like how you threw in the ‘imagined I smelled’ comment! Haha I did indeed smell it! And remember I smelled it first, then was questioned two weeks later…I wasn’t coerced into thinking I smelled it, subliminaly!
Show me some proof of a god.
Show me proof that there is not a God.
I cannot show you absolute proof on paper, or actual evidence of proof. I can’t convince you by coercion nor can I convince by trickery. God obviously doesn’t want tangible proof out there, because the whole point is to have faith in his existence. He will show clues and hints, if you are open minded enough to recognize them you will.
I’m not sure I want to follow a deity that wants to play games with my soul.