# Is there a God??/??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099 "2004-02-13T20:48:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jimjamjumble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@Jimjamjumble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimjamjumble)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/1 "2004-02-13T20:48:14Z")
i don’t know if there is a god buty for the sake of argment i will pretend to be athiest. if you believe in god then say why and we can talk. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/2 "2004-02-13T20:53:23Z")
Matter can`t create itself can it? God always was and always will be. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/3 "2004-02-13T20:54:02Z")
How about this: if you believe there is a God, it will be just like there is one. If you don’t it won’t be like that. Good enough? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/4 "2004-02-13T20:54:33Z")
Welcome to the SDMB, **Jimjamjumble**. Generally the way things work here in Great Debates is the OP (stands for original poster, or you in this case) makes an assertion, usually backed up with cites. How about we talk about what do you believe and why? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/5 "2004-02-13T20:56:48Z")
BTW if it helps; Maybe, until you get your spelling and grammar straightened out, you could cut n paste from Word. Gosh, I hope I didn`t misspell anything in this post. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/6 "2004-02-13T21:02:11Z")
**Uncommon Sense** Shouldn’t it be god, instead of gosh? \* hehehe\* ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/7 "2004-02-13T21:08:18Z")
If there IS a god, then as we speak agents of the Evil American Empire™, dressed in black with black sun glasses and flying in all black and noiseless helocopters are currently just preparing a major raid in Belgum looking for Weapons of Mass Aldarbaran. If god exists they will be in the process of cornering this notorious criminal and pelting him with either pickles or throwing gooy pies at him, to leave him in a sodden, sputtering and America ranting heap! I really hope there IS a god…I’mjust not holding my breath for one. Life can be SO cruel… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Jimjamjumble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@Jimjamjumble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimjamjumble)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/8 "2004-02-13T21:09:00Z")
unconmonsense matter cant create itself thats true. but god must b made of \*somethiong[i/] and that something must have mass, right? If that’s true then where did god c ome from?? Apos i dont understand 😕 (heehee, love that smiley). If there is a god but i choose not to believe in him then i will go to hell. if there isnt a god but i choose to beleive that there is and pray all the time then ill have wasted all my time an i don’t want THAT 🙂 lord ashtar i don’t know what i believe. that’s why i’m here. As far as I’m concernet there might b a God and there might not. I’m really confuzzled 🙂 I dont really know anyone who beleives in God so i dont have anyone to talk to about this. ---
**Author:** ![Jimjamjumble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@Jimjamjumble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimjamjumble)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/9 "2004-02-13T21:10:29Z")
lord ashtar: Sorry. I forgot 2 thank u for the welcome 🙂 Uncommon Sens: Thanks. That’s a good idea 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/10 "2004-02-13T21:18:38Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Matter can`t create itself can it? The prevailing scientific model of the universe does not _require_ matter to create itself. > [@](#): > > God always was and always will be. If God can be eternal, why can’t the universe be eternal? ---
**Author:** ![Paco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a6a055/32.png) [@Paco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paco)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/11 "2004-02-13T21:24:23Z")
I don’t personally believe in god. I know many people who believe simpy because if they do and there is, they are good to go to heaven, but if they believe and there isn’t a go then they really haven’t lost anything. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/12 "2004-02-13T21:28:00Z")
> [@Jimjamjumble](#): > > unconmonsense, matter cant create itself thats true. but god must b made of _somethiong_ and that something must have mass, right? No, not necessarily. Many people believe that God is entirely spirit. Thus, no matter, no mass. Which means that absence of a physical manifestation does not prove absence of God. > [@](#): > > If there is a god but i choose not to believe in him then i will go to hell. Again, not necessarily. “Proving” the existence of God (and good luck with that project, by the way) is only the first step. After proof of existence, _then_ you can tackle the nature of God. I could assert a God who exists but who subjects non-believers to an eternity of Air Supply concerts (oh. . . wait. That _is_ a definition of hell. . . bad analogy. > [@](#): > > if there isnt a god but i choose to beleive that there is and pray all the time then ill have wasted all my time Um . . . not necessarily. There _may_ be psychological, social or other benefits to prayer even in the absence of a deity. . . . in other words, welcome to Great Debates. If you don’t take anything too personally, you can have a great time here. You’ll find people nit-picking your thought processes, your presumptions, assumptions, typing, spelling and the way you comb your hair. In the end, you’ll come out a little bit frazzled but sharper for the experience. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/13 "2004-02-13T21:34:41Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > The prevailing scientific model of the universe does not _require_ matter to create itself. Neither does it say God couldn`t have created it. > [@](#): > > If God can be eternal, why can’t the universe be eternal? Touche ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/14 "2004-02-13T21:46:26Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > If God can be eternal, why can’t the universe be eternal? Because, unlike God, the Universe CAN be scientifically measured, studied, examinied…and dated. Unless its another example of the trickster god who makes it so it LOOKS like its something its not. Personally I think the best way to make a self determiniation if god exists or not is Occams Razor. The simplest explaination (to me) is…no. There are reasonable and simple scientific explainations about the creation of the Universe that don’t rely on an all powerful being that could create such a thing. There are reasonable and simple scientific explainations as to the origins of life and how it evolved that don’t require the same all powerful being. Sure, there are gaps in our CURRENT knowledge…but we are constantly filling them. And none of the gaps I’m aware of point to the absolute necessity of an all powerful diety. So, to me anyway, Occams Razor says the simplest, most elegant solution to this question is: There is no god. Use of Occams Razor is highly variable, depending on your own perceptions, natural inclinations, and foot size. Your results may vary. -XT ---
**Author:** ![criminalcatalog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e68b1a/32.png) [@criminalcatalog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/criminalcatalog)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/15 "2004-02-13T21:48:17Z")
**Jimjamjumble** , some things exist that don’t necessarily have mass. Thoughts and emotions, for example. IMHO, if God is real, I still refuse to subject to [it], regardless of the consequences. I think of myself as a free-willed entity, humbled by no one/thing. That I have the ability to imagine and analyze anything I wish is significant proof (at least to me) of my status in this universe. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/16 "2004-02-13T21:55:39Z")
God is not a matter of fact (that which can be proven via scientific analysis), but a matter of belief in something despite the lack of proof. If there was indesputable proof, we probably would have heard about it and there would considerably fewer religions. Thus, when you finish reading the final post in this thread, you will have no more definite answer to your question as you did when you first posted. Just like all the other threads that have been posted on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/17 "2004-02-13T22:01:26Z")
I believe the debate about God’s existence has been flayed to death for, oh I dunno, the past four millenia or so by all the Great Minds, and I think the final verdict is there is no way to logically argue for or against the existence of God. Everyone who has tried has fallen prey to fallacy or tautology. I have great respect for the posters here in the SDMB, but I’m not all that confident we can do any better than has already been done. All I can contribute to the discussion is this: Blaise Pascal (perhaps exasperated by the argument) dodged the question entirely. Instead, he proposed, it really doesn’t matter if there is a God or not. All you need to know is that missing out on a profligate life isn’t worth the eternity in Hell you may be facing after you die. So err on the side of caution: Live a pious life; because you lose zero (compared to infinte Damnation) if you’re wrong, and you win major big (eternal Salvation) if you’re right. It’s the safest bet, and came to be known as Pascal’s wager. Here’s my problem: Infinite anything. Any finite number n, I don’t care how big, divided by infinity, is zero. I take this to be indisputable. Now, say I’m Hitler. Not surprisingly, I get sent to Hell. But for what? What’s my two or three score years’ worth of Evil compared to an eternity in perdition? Nothing! I’m being given the ultimate punishment for nothing? And say I’m Mother Theresa. You could argue she deserves to spend all eternity in Paradise. But why? I mean, yeah she lived a long life of goodness and self-sacrifice, but big deal. Compared to eternal reward, that’s not even a drop in the ocean. It’s nothing. Literally. So, you’re good and go to Heaven. For what? Nothing. You’re bad and go to Hell. For what? Again, nothing. Hence, we are either totally wrong about what God wants out of us, or God is arbitrary in regards to what He does with us in the afterlife. So why bother worrying about it? I sure don’t! ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/18 "2004-02-13T22:09:02Z")
Oh, no - not xtisme again.😉 > [@xtisme](#): > > Because, unlike God, the Universe CAN be scientifically measured, studied, examinied…and dated. Unless its another example of the trickster god who makes it so it LOOKS like its something its not. “Can’t be eternal” does not logically follow from “Can be measured”. Yes, we have an approximate date for the “beginning” of the universe, but it’s not a beginning in the sense of a creation. The big bang wasn’t “nothing”, rather it was “everything” - all matter squeezed into a single point of infinite density. Time does not exist at the big bang, so the concept of “before” the big bang is nonsensical. Matter was not “created”, it was there all the time (forgive my use of the word “time” here - I only use it for want of a better word). Weren’t you around when **Senitent Meat** had a whole thread on the subject? > [@](#): > > Personally I think the best way to make a self determiniation if god exists or not is Occams Razor. The simplest explaination (to me) is…no. There are reasonable and simple scientific explainations about the creation of the Universe that don’t rely on an all powerful being that could create such a thing. There are reasonable and simple scientific explainations as to the origins of life and how it evolved that don’t require the same all powerful being. I agree with you there, but I was refuting a specific point. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/19 "2004-02-13T22:14:38Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Neither does it say God couldn`t have created it. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099/20 "2004-02-13T22:16:53Z")
Oops - spelled Sentient Meat wrong. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-god/229099.md?page=2)