featherlou - You’re absolutely right, a person born into poverty definitely has a disadvantage compared to someone born into a middle class house. It’s all relative. Most college grads have to slave away in their cubicles while the bosses kid inherits the family business.
You don’t solve the problem’s of a class society by taking from the rich and giving to the poor. The objective is not to make everyone have the same amount of money.
The way to solve the problem is to remove the barriers that keep poor people poor. Education and job training is one of the best ways. Providing low interest loans so disadvantaged people can start their own businesses is a good idea. But if you don’t teach them how to run a business, thats just pissing money away.
justwannano - What is it you do for a living that makes you think CEO’s, engineers, and MBAs don’t do any work?
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I didn’t say they didn’t do any work. You must read the words.
I said they are small cogs. They generally start the project but the majority, no,damned all of the work is done by others.
Well, sort of. It teaches you how those already in the business think it works…or want you to think it works.
This is certainly the conventional wisdom. But, there can be other factors too. I know someone in an MBA program who pointed out that claiming that CEOs’ salaries are just determined by the market and are thus beyond reproach (as his professor did) is a bit of B.S. He noted that one problem is that these higher-ups in various companies serve on the Board of Directors of other companies. These boards decide on executive compensation and there is more than a little bit of opportunity for “I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine” sort of behavior (probably more implicit than explicit arrangements).
By the way, another interesting thing is the sort of “golden parachutes” these CEOs get even when they totally fuck up. The (now former) CEO of Xerox was fired after he seems to have almost single-handedly driven the company into the ground in a period of less than 2 years. (He basically decided to re-organize their world class sales force in such a way that left people milling around doing nothing while the competition came in and grabbed all their contracts!) His contract stated that he gets $600,000 for life if he gets fired, but the Board of Directors took pity on him (or maybe were just impressed with just how badly he had screwed up) and voted him an extra $200,000 per year. [One of my co-workers used to say that he could run our company just as badly as it is currently being run for half the price. Even he has to grudgingly admit that he is not sure he could have run Xerox as badly as this guy did…It took a certain amount of “skill” to screw things up as badly as he apparently did!]
Providing low interest loans so disadvantaged people can start their own businesses is a good idea. But if you don’t teach them how to run a business, thats just pissing money away.
Now what kind of buisness do you think a disadvantaged person is going to see a future in.
I guess if he’s in really bad shape used blankets???
Thank you for explaining this…this phenomenon has confounded me for years, and now I understand how it happens. Before this, it looked for all the world like most corporate boards were being run by the insane. “Hey, he sucks…things are the worst they’ve ever been…he’s brought us to the brink of bankruptcy…let’s give him lots of money! HAHAHAHAHA”
One thing that would probably help many people (I know it would have helped me) would be a basic life skills course in high school. Kids aren’t prepared for the real world; when they get out of school, they just play it by ear.
Why don’t we teach kids how to manage money? Why don’t we teach them why the rent-to-own TV is a bad deal? Kids need to know how to balance a checkbook, how to work out a budget. They need to know how much things cost. I, for one, had no idea how much utilities, rent, groceries, insurance and such cost until I was out on my own. I had no idea how much a baby would cost until I had one.
I was poor because I made costly mistakes, but I wasn’t stupid. If I’d been taught financial reality, I could have avoided those mistakes. This would have been quite a bit more useful than what I learned in Home Ec: how to design wedding floral arrangements and invitations.
So many people aren’t able to get out of poverty simply because they have no idea how to deal with money. How you spend your money is just as important as how much money you make, and it’s even more important if your income is very low.
with plenty of charts, both based on original census data, and adjusted for taxes, hours worked, etc.
A quick look around reveals that the Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank dedicated to researching public policy issues and drawing up reports like this one. To me, that “conservative” self-description means don’t take everything they say on blind faith. However, their arguments here seem fairly well supported and cover a lot of bases nobody’s addressed in this thread that may account for much of the income gap, such as:
=> Most statistics you hear are PRE-tax, so they don’t account for existing income redistribution measures
The CEO’s and business owners will always make more money than the rest of us, and that’s fine. There will also always be a % of people who don’t make as much as everyone else.
The problem is how to keep people from becomming locked into the class they are born into.
Giving money to crackheads and streetpeople is not the solution. Giving money to peole to retrain or start their own businesses is a better idea. Would you rather be a truckdriver or own a small fleet of trucks and have a crew of workers under you?
The problem is that starting a business or going to college takes money. If you don’t have the money to do either, it’s easy to become trapped in a low paying job.
The same holds true for CEOs as well. I don’t see why a CEO should receive a golden parachute for screwing up a company. If he does a good job growing the company, he should become a millionare. If not, he should get paid the same salry as the rest of us.
I don’t want to be either a truckdriver or the owner of a trucking company.
Sometimes in life you have to do what you have to do.
Unfortunatly I’m forced to look for other work because of problems with my hip,replaced last year ,and shoulders.
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The problem is that starting a business or going to college takes money. If you don’t have the money to do either, it’s easy to become trapped in a low paying job.
Very true. But when Daddy, the CEO,pays for Jr and Jrettes toys and education jr and jrette BELIEVE they deserve what they have.The beginning of the problem.
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The same holds true for CEOs as well. I don’t see why a CEO should receive a golden parachute for screwing up a company. If he does a good job growing the company, he should become a millionare. If not, he should get paid the same salry as the rest of us.
True again but not necessarily a millionare. Also if the company is making money for him he should be forced,Yes Forced , into paying his workers a living wage. Also if he is able to put money away for retirement he should provide for his workers retirement also.After all he is nothing without his loyal workers.
Basically, Princeton will no longer required incoming students to take out loans to pay for their education, instead granting the funds with no strings attached so long as need is demonstrated.
(Of course, ask the upper middle-class parents who are paying full tuition to support these grants and you may hear some grumbling – but still, it can no longer be said that poor kids don’t have access to the top universities – I think even the application fee can be waived if there’s sufficient need)
I don’t want to comment on your particular situation because I don’t know you. I’ll give you an example from the cubicle farm where I work:
Most of my coworkers have been doing the same suck-ass job for 10+ years at our suck-ass company. They hate their job, but they keep at it. I don’t know if its fear of change or misguided loyalty or laziness, but they stay here. So for the past three years, while they go home and watch tv or whatever it is they do, I go to class 2-4 nights a week. Now, because of my advanced degree, I have a job that pays %60 more while they continue to eek out a living with %3 annual raises. I also have the opportunity to advance much quicker because of the contacts and experience I get at my new job.
The only down side is that I will have to work 70 hour weeks and travel, but for me thats worth it at this stage in my career. Do you know any blue collar workers who will work extra hours with screaming for OT? I don’t.
Which problem is that? That there are spoiled brats out there who don’t have to worry about anything more important than keeping their BMW clean because Mummy and Daddy pay for everything. That has nothing to do with poor people being poor.
In any case, please don’t lump me in with that group. I work for a living, pay for my own schooling, and drive a 10 year old shitbox car because I would rather invest $45,000 in education than impressing my friends.
Why not? If I start my own company, I am incuring a greater financial and professional risk than someone who just takes a job as a cog in the machine (4/5 new business fail in the first couple years). I should see greater compensation for that risk. Bill Gates never finished college and he built one of the greatest software companies ever. Why shouldn’t he be a millionare, if not a billionare?
Another thing, most companies do put money away for their workers retirement. It’s called a matching 401k.
My point is that people need to invest in their own careers and not expect some corporation or the government to give them a handout. Just because some CEO gets paid $20 MM in stock options dosen’t mean he is now responsible for making sure all his employees drive brand new cars.
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Most of my coworkers have been doing the same suck-ass job for 10+ years at our
suck-ass company. They hate their job, but they keep at it. I don’t know if its fear of
change or misguided loyalty or laziness, but they stay here.
So for the past three years, while they go home and watch tv or whatever it is they do, I go to
class 2-4 nights a week. Now, because of my advanced degree, I have a job that pays %60 more
while they continue to eek out a living with %3 annual raises. I also have the opportunity to
advance much quicker because of the contacts and experience I get at my new job.
Three whole years huh. Learning theoryHuh 60% more huh.You are overpaid already. You also
know nothing about your fellow workers and have a bad attitude.
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I will have to work 70 hour weeks and travel
I’ll bet your co workers will be glad to get rid of someone like you.You don’t understand that
those people are working hard for probably not enough money .
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Do you know any blue collar workers who will work extra hours with screaming for OT? I don’t.
Well that just makes my point above more valid. Sure I know lots that want the overtime. Usually
there is some young executive that chimes in with the notion that they are getting paid too much
and the company backs off on the ot and hires temps.
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Why not? If I start my own company, I am incuring a greater financial and professional risk than
someone who just takes a job as a cog in the machine (4/5 new business fail in the first couple
years). I should see greater compensation for that risk
Financial risk OK. Point well taken. I think you should first be able to recover that financial risk.
but after that you are one of the cogs.Your position is no more than one of the employees. It is
your job to do what you do.
(4/5 new business fail in the first couple years).
How well I know that.
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I should see greater compensation for that risk
Already addressed above. But since you mentioned risk how about your employees risk. They
are counting on your GREAT knowlege for their financial future. What if you fail.
They are completely dependent upon you.They are living at the same rate as you and you
control their future.
My point is that people need to invest in their own careers and not expect some corporation or
the government to give them a handout. Just because some CEO gets paid $20 MM in stock
options dosen’t mean he is now responsible for making sure all his employees drive brand new
cars.
Most people do not expect a handout. And from my experience they think that management is
the one with its hand out. You really feel that your little bit of schooling is worth 60% more than
those with 10 years experience?
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Just because some CEO gets paid $20 MM in stock options dosen’t mean he is now responsible
for making sure all his employees drive brand new cars.
Point well taken. But it does mean that he is responsible if the employees job puts that employee
at risk. Either physically of through health related problems. Too many times employers hire
people for minimum wage and put them in risk taking jobs. Notice above where I
mentioned hiring temps.
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Another thing, most companies do put money away for their workers retirement. It’s called a
matching 401k.
Not!
I’ll bet you’re on your first job aren’t you.
I certainly know my coworkers better than you know me. I hardly think you can judge my attitude based on a few messages.
Besides that, I have chosen to switch into an industry where the pay is typically higher than my last job. It dosen’t really reflect my experience.
Once again, you are jumping to conclusions based on your preception of my socio-economic class. I am actually fairly well liked by my coworkers.
I work just as hard as they do. The diference is I decided that I would take my career into my own hands. I don’t see any need to work 15 years at a job I hate hoping that someday management will notice my efforts and promote me or give me a raise.
Actually, you just made my point. I get paid the same salary regardless how many hours I work. I am expected to bill a certain amount of those hours to my clients and its usually a lot more than 40. I don’t get OT pay or weekend pay, but I’m expected to work both.
When I was younger, worked as one of those temps you hate in mostly warehouses and factories. I noticed that when the whistle blew at 5:00, all the factory workers drop what they’re doing and scramble out of the building like Fred Flintstone sliding down that dinosaur in the opening credits.
I’m sure part of that is the way the company sets up their pay. As a salaried worker, however, I am expected to get my job done even if I have to stay in the office until midnight.
Actually, I want to qualify that. Unless you are starting a business with your own money, its usually the VCs (venture capitalists) who take the risk.
The problem is, say that Joe Blow just wants a couple of $100k so he can so he can start his own contracting business as a roofer (and actually, a lot of those guys make a lot more than the civil engineers who design the roof). He often has a harder time getting a small business loan than so a couple of Wharton MBAs who want $20 million of VC funding to start some BS Internet company that won’t work in the first place.
An interesting point. Well, at least with a company that goes public, the employees (who usually get stock options) also have the opportunity to share the benefit if the firm takes off.
Besides, if you went to work for someone who controlled your future, wouldn’t you feel better if they had at least SOME knowledge of basic theory?
Honestly? No, and Yes. No because I’ll be the first to admit that being a Big 5 (Deloitte & Touche, Accenture, PriceWaterhouseCoppers, KPMG, and Ernst & Young) or McKinsey/Bain/BCG consultant is mostly a lot of BS. Most of the people who work for those firms are usually right out of B-school. They are expected to go into companies and tell a CEO with 10, or 20 years industry experience how to run their business better. Usually we just throw up some fancy graphs and spout some cool buzzwords (like proactive, or best practices) and everyone goes “oooooo…ahhhhhhhh!”.
BUT
There is a demand for that type of service and I enjoy providing it. And it pays big $$$. (One of my classmates had an offer for $120k and she can’t even do her statistics homework without help!). So its not important if you or I think that MBA adds real value. Someone who does is willing to pay for it.
Also, just to head off your reply, I don’t feel like I am ripping off clients or anything like that. A client pays me for my oppinion regarding a specific business problem. I research it (with a team of others) and present what I (we) feel is a proper course of action.
Personally, I feel that hiring temps/contractors/consultants is ok for peak demand periods or for short term projects. Its better than constantly hiring and firing full time workers as demand fluctuates.
I am against using temporary workers long term (more than a couple of months) or as a primary source of labor. From my own experience, I think they are bad for morale. They also end up costing more in the long run because they take knowledge with them and you have to keep training new temps.
Well, I can’t really say most companies. I don’t have stats to back up that statement.
I should say “every corporation that I or anyone I know has worker at has had some kind of retirement program”. Thats hardly a good cross-section of all the companies out there.
I also tend to job hop so, no this is not my first job. It’s just the first professional job I had that sucked this much.
I agree with you that a lot of executives have their head up their ass. My director thinks we are all overpaid while we get %3 raises and are well under the market average. My managers can’t even run a meeting and have anything productive come out of it. But, since the system is not going to change anytime soon, you have to work with it.
Does a college degree or MBA magically give you the knowledge of someone who has been in the industry for 20 years? Obviously no. But certain jobs (like engineer) require them as credentials. And having one seems to increase your earning potential. So the way I see it, you get one so you can get paid more or at least find a job you like doing.
This is an excellent point. Why does it seem to be assumed that everyone has equal knowledge of how to be successful (and value success), how to study (and value knowledge), how to stick to things when the going gets tough, how to budget, how to make the most out of what you have, how to plan for the future? Kids learn from their parents; if their parents have no knowledge of these things, and the schools aren’t teaching them any of them, where are they supposed to learn it? Most will learn some important things from experience and trial-and-error; others never get the hang of simple ideas like budgeting. Even if they do manage to pick up some good ideas along the way, they will probably find (like I did) that I had wasted a good chunk of my earnings years living cheque to cheque.
I work just as hard as they do. The diference is I decided that I would take my career into my own
hands. I don’t see any need to work 15 years at a job I hate hoping that someday management
will notice my efforts and promote me or give me a raise.
At least you are not stuck in a job so you are able to take your career into your own hands.
You are very lucky.
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Actually, you just made my point. I get paid the same salary regardless how many hours I work. I
am expected to bill a certain amount of those hours to my clients and its usually a lot more than
40. I don’t get OT pay or weekend pay, but I’m expected to work both.
Yep been there done that. Actually your comment was do I know any blue collar workers who
would work that kind of overtime.
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When I was younger, worked as one of those temps you hate in mostly warehouses and
factories. I noticed that when the whistle blew at 5:00, all the factory workers drop what they’re
doing and scramble out of the building like Fred Flintstone sliding down that dinosaur in the
opening credits.
Yep again. Thats the attitude you get after working a bunch of years and see management
reward a few mucky mucks and you are still struggling to pay off the old used oldsmobile.
Actually I have sympathy for the temp workers It is the temp employment companies I hate.
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The problem is, say that Joe Blow just wants a couple of $100k so he can so he can start his
own contracting business as a roofer (and actually, a lot of those guys make a lot more than the
civil engineers who design the roof). He often has a harder time getting a small business loan
than so a couple of Wharton MBAs who want $20 million of VC funding to start some BS Internet
company that won’t work in the first place.
Site
Just kidding.
The roofer I worked for wants to know where he can get 200K or so.
He paid me $5.00 an hour a few years ago.
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Besides, if you went to work for someone who controlled your future, wouldn’t you feel better if
they had at least SOME knowledge of basic theory?
If I went to work for someone? Anytime I have to accept a low paying job I am not able to control
my future.
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Honestly? No, and Yes. No because I’ll be the first to admit that being a Big 5 (Deloitte &
Touche, Accenture, PriceWaterhouseCoppers, KPMG, and Ernst & Young) or
McKinsey/Bain/BCG consultant is mostly a lot of BS. Most of the people who work for those firms
are usually right out of B-school. They are expected to go into companies and tell a CEO with 10,
or 20 years industry experience how to run their business better. Usually we just throw up some
fancy graphs and spout some cool buzzwords (like proactive, or best practices) and everyone
goes “oooooo…ahhhhhhhh!”.
BUT
There is a demand for that type of service and I enjoy providing it. And it pays big $$$. (One of
my classmates had an offer for $120k and she can’t even do her statistics homework without
help!). So its not important if you or I think that MBA adds real value. Someone who does is
willing to pay for it.
I’m speachless .I don’t know anything about that stuff.
Please note the topic of this thread.
What I do know is I see no way out of this situation. It seems to me that if someone is willing to
pay someone 120K they don’t know about us little guys down here on earth.
Part luck. Part planning. I’m also fortunate that I live in a city that has a lot of colleges as well as jobs.
So we are agreed. Working overtime for an unappreciative boss sucks, regardless of how much you make.
I liked my old beat up used Oldsmobile.
Wish I knew the answer to that one. I was actually refering to a lot of the contractors I met when I used to be a civil engineer (changed careers after about a year). A lot of these guys were bringing in pretty big bucks. Usually it was the plumbers, electricians, carpenters and special equipment operators. There were also a lot of minimum wage unskilled laborers who were paid to hammer nails and carry stuff.
Sorry, its “management consulting” stuff. Basically its a profession where companies pay a lot of money to have someone tell them how to run their business.
I guess that’s part of the problem of a class society. People spend so much time around other people who are just like them that they think that’s how the entire world is. I don’t think theres anything wrong with a few exceptional people making a lot of money. The problem is that a lot of the Harvard grads who end up running companies probably never had a minimum wage job and have no idea what its like not to be able to afford stuff. The other problem is that there is often more than just the bottom line. A small investment in your employees can go a long way in improving loyalty and productivity.
I agree with your opinion of class society to a point. I don’t agree completely that upper class people don’t realize that the world isn’t like their priviledged existences; I think they know and truly don’t care. I believe this attitude is called “I got mine.”
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I think the loyalty and productivity boat has sailed. Lower level employees have been kicked around so much by this point that the concept of loyalty to an employer is laughable. Your statement about investing in employees is interesting; it appears to me that you advocate improving conditions for employees to increase their productivity and cut costs for the employer, not for the actual benefit of the employees themselves. Sort of like a farmer’s attitude towards his herd; “Give the cows a slightly better grade of hay, and you’ll increase milk production by 25%”.
Just to show increasing distance between workers and management here is whats happening locally.
Several of the local factories when seeing that there was a shortage of workers , that wanted to work for low wages , began hiring immigrants. In the break rooms you seldom hear English spoken. It is Cambodian,Vietnameese and Spanish.
The former personnel manager recieved awards from the government for hiring so many immigrants.
Nothing against these people, they probably work hard, but the government is assisting them “Get settled”. Help buying,Yes buying,a house. Help buying a car. These are the two things that cost the rest of us the most money. Couple that with food stamps and you have a pretty well off family.
And what of the rest of us…