# Is there a moral limit to collateral damage inflicted in self defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2006, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634 "2006-07-31T00:34:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/21 "2006-07-31T05:52:49Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Its moot now of course…unfortunately. ☹ [/QUOTE] [All rights and all wrongs have long since blown away For causes are ashes where children lie slain](http://www.ifred.ca/stanrogers/songs/hoo-sng.html) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/22 "2006-07-31T06:04:18Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] All rights and all wrongs have long since blown away For causes are ashes where children lie slain [/QUOTE] Yeah…the horrible similarities are rather striking. And the endless cycle of violence is rather sickening. Maybe some day… [QUOTE=treis] Why don’t you try this post again without the attitude. [/QUOTE] Naw…why don’t you respond with some objections? I was smarting a bit from the ‘childish’ thing when I wrote that…and also was trying to inject a bit of humor in a grim subject (for my own self…better sometimes to laugh than cry, and cry I did when I read the accounts this morning). So…leaving aside my ‘attitude’, what response do you have? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/23 "2006-07-31T06:49:18Z")
Serious question: Why is Israel being castigated for taking steps in their defense and accidentally killing civilians, while Hezbollah, while not exactly getting a pass, is being defended indirectly by people/countries that state that Israel is “going too far” in their actions when Hezbollah is the very example of indiscriminate killing? If Lebanon cannot or will not take action within their own borders, at what point does their government abdicate the right to govern? As I see it, the big problem here is that by Lebanon’s inaction with regard to Hezbollah, they have given Israel no other choice. It’s unfortunate that innocent people died, hell, it’s downright tragic, but if Lebanon had done their job and governed their own country by rooting out the cancer that’s been there for decades this whole thing could have been prevented. That’s the real tragedy here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/24 "2006-07-31T07:31:36Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Serious question: Why is Israel being castigated for taking steps in their defense and accidentally killing civilians, while Hezbollah, while not exactly getting a pass, is being defended indirectly by people/countries that state that Israel is “going too far” in their actions when Hezbollah is the very example of indiscriminate killing? [/quote] Because the damgae caused by Hezbollah is so small in proportion to the response, that’s why. Should the US have used FAE on the Vatican in retaliation for the pedophila scandals ? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/25 "2006-07-31T07:34:10Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Because the damgae caused by Hezbollah is so small in proportion to the response, that’s why. Should the US have used FAE on the Vatican in retaliation for the pedophila scandals ? [/QUOTE] That’s not even worth dignifying with a response, but since I’m here I’ll give it what it quite obviously deserves: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/26 "2006-07-31T07:49:45Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Serious question: Why is Israel being castigated for taking steps in their defense and accidentally killing civilians, while Hezbollah, while not exactly getting a pass, is being defended indirectly by people/countries that state that Israel is “going too far” in their actions when Hezbollah is the very example of indiscriminate killing? [/QUOTE] [ol] [li]America, by providing Israel with weapons and support, is tacitly repsonsible for Israel’s actions. Therefore, as an American I place greater emphasis on Israel’s actions[/li][li]Israel has inflicted a much, much worse toll on the Lebanese population and infrastructure than Hezbollah has on the Israeli[/li][li]Since Israel recieves so much aid from America, as an American I both scrutinize their actions more and hold them to a higher standard[/li][li]America recieves blame for Israel’s actions, and hurts our standing in the Middle East. Therefore they catch flak from me when I believe their actions needlessly hurt America’s position[/li][\*]No one approves of the targetting of civilians so repeatidly condeming Hizbollah’s actions is largely unnecessary[/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/27 "2006-07-31T07:58:01Z")
[QUOTE=treis] America, by providing Israel with weapons and support, is tacitly repsonsible for Israel’s actions. Therefore, as an American I place greater emphasis on Israel’s actions [/quote] And Iran is tacitly supporting Hezbollah. Everybody has a sponsor. In this case Israel is right inasmuch as they have a right to defend themselves. > [@](#): > > Israel has inflicted a much, much worse toll on the Lebanese population and infrastructure than Hezbollah has on the Israeli Are we ignoring the last 30 years and only counting the last few weeks in that assessment, or do you really believe that Hezbollah has not been vastly more damaging to Israel over that tie period? > [@](#): > > Since Israel recieves so much aid from America, as an American I both scrutinize their actions more and hold them to a higher standard Why? > [@](#): > > America recieves blame for Israel’s actions, and hurts our standing in the Middle East. Therefore they catch flak from me when I believe their actions needlessly hurt America’s position The only way the US can ragin standing in regard to Israel with that part of the world is to abandon Israel completely. That would be Holocaust Part 2. > [@](#): > > No one approves of the targetting of civilians so repeatidly condeming Hizbollah’s actions is largely unnecessary Nobody? There are thousands that approve of it and prove it daily by launching rockets or detonating roadside bombs or blowing up buses. Hezbollah’s actions should be condemned early and often. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/28 "2006-07-31T08:23:10Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Why is Israel being castigated for taking steps in their defense and accidentally killing civilians, while Hezbollah, while not exactly getting a pass, is being defended indirectly by people/countries that state that Israel is “going too far” in their actions when Hezbollah is the very example of indiscriminate killing? [/QUOTE] For whatever reason, there is (obviously) a double standard at work wrt this issue. Why? I suppose Israel is held to a higher standard than either Lebanon or HB (or the various other friendly and peaceloving powers in the region) by some…as it should be, since its a western style democracy. For others I think it revolves around a combination of ignorance of the actual history of whats going on there, coupled with a wide eyed acceptance of the propaganda spewed out by the various enemies of Israel…and there is a LOT of it. Lots of revisionist history, lots of mis-information, lots of spinning. For whatever reason, the Palestinian cause became fashionable in certain political circles and with certain western nations across the big water, and thats probably part of it too. [QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] If Lebanon cannot or will not take action within their own borders, at what point does their government abdicate the right to govern? As I see it, the big problem here is that by Lebanon’s inaction with regard to Hezbollah, they have given Israel no other choice. It’s unfortunate that innocent people died, hell, it’s downright tragic, but if Lebanon had done their job and governed their own country by rooting out the cancer that’s been there for decades this whole thing could have been prevented. [/QUOTE] By actively supporting HB AND its various aims, Lebanon is not only abdicating the right to rule but putting itself rather firmly at blame for what has happened. Oh, I have no doubt they are distressed…they probably didn’t count on this thing escallating to what has happened, and are feeling the burn now. But just because they didn’t anticipating that THIS (proxy) attack against Israel would set them off, doesn’t mean (IMO) that they get a pass, responsibility wise. I think you yourself have bought into the helpless Lebanon who just wants to get along meme. Personally, when a government actively speaks out its support for a paramilitary organization, they have to be prepared to face the consequences when that loose cannon goes off on the deck. I do agree that its a tragic mess…and one I don’t see any answer too. [QUOTE=treis] Israel has inflicted a much, much worse toll on the Lebanese population and infrastructure than Hezbollah has on the Israeli [/QUOTE] I never have gotten this one. Hezbollah places its military targets in civilian areas…in fact, they pretty much fight from the cover of civilians (at least wrt their rocket attacks). They do this deliberately for a variety of reasons…one of which however is to cause Israel to inflict those casualties so they can reap the propaganda rewards. Israel is trying to hit those military targets…resulting in a higher civilian death toll through a combination of the fact that HB has used said civilians as a shield and the fact that Israel has a professional military, able to more effectively strike targets (and thus to cause greater casualties if something goes wrong or if people just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time). HB on the other hand had DELIBERATELY targetted Israeli civilians in the border towns…and makes no bones about it. Fortunately HB is pretty fucking bad at actually HITTING those targets with the crude weapons they currently have. Otherwise the death toll civilian wise would be more even…and I suppose that then maybe HB would be in for its share of blame. Or something. And yet, all this is used in some mysterious way to somehow condemn Israel (who isn’t targetting civilians directly) while giving HB a pass (who IS targetting civilians, but who is just bad at hitting them…but not for want of trying). As I said…I don’t get it. [QUOTE=treis] Since Israel recieves so much aid from America, as an American I both scrutinize their actions more and hold them to a higher standard [/QUOTE] I agree. As a western style democracy Israel SHOULD be held to a higher standard. I just happen to think that its held to an impossibly high standard (by some)…one that no nation in its position could possibly maintain given its strategic and tactical situation…and lets not forget its colorful history (and most importantly the history of its various neighbors). [QUOTE=treis] America recieves blame for Israel’s actions, and hurts our standing in the Middle East. Therefore they catch flak from me when I believe their actions needlessly hurt America’s position [/QUOTE] Probably true…though our standing was never real high in some places there anyway. I don’t see why this should necessarily effect our policy toward Israel…not unless they start doing things that go beyond the pale (like carpet bombing Lebanese towns, or slaughtering Lebanese/Palestinian civilians indiscriminately). [QUOTE=treis] No one approves of the targetting of civilians so repeatidly condeming Hizbollah’s actions is largely unnecessary [/QUOTE] And yet…some folks seem to take a seemingly endless delight in condeming Israel’s actions, while (seemingly) handwaving HB’s actions away, or justifying said actions with a dual standard. Why SHOULDN’T HB get the same treatment? Why should Lebanon, who supported HB (and I’m talking the militant wing here, not the political one) both verbally AND with funding get a pass? After all, they are the aggressor. The foundation of WHY they are being aggressive (i.e. trying to ‘liberate’ parts of Lebanon that were never PART of Lebanon, etc) is bullshit. They (HB, proxy for among others Lebanon itself) instigated hostilities by their continued low level attacks, kidnappings, etc. And they directly and consiously target civilians without even trying to make an exuse…hell, its their intent to kill civilians. The only good thing is, so far, they don’t have the weapons to really do this effectively. I think condemnation of HB should be as much or more (well, of course I think more) than Israel down the line…and responsibility for when civilians die during this conflict should be heaped on HB and Lebanon as well as Israel. YMMV… -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/29 "2006-07-31T08:35:48Z")
Just a quick update… Appearently Israel has called a cease fire from air strikes for [48 hours](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/31/mideast.main/index.html) while they investigate just what happened. > [@](#): > > Israel agreed Sunday to halt airstrikes on southern Lebanon for 48 hours to investigate a raid that killed more than 60 civilians in Qana, Lebanon, an Israeli official said. I wonder if HB calls a halt to their rocket attacks when they ‘accidentally’ hit civilian targets… :dubious: > [@](#): > > Safe passage for 24 hours > > Israel will also arrange with U.N. officials to allow safe passage for 24 hours so residents of southern Lebanon can flee the region, the Israeli official said. > > The official confirmed an earlier announcement by U.S. State Department spokesman Adam Ereli, who said the bombing halt should “significantly speed and improve the flow of humanitarian aid.” At a guess, evil America has put some pressure on Israel to wind this thing down..from behind the scenes. Probably pressure to halt for 48 hours, allow safe passage for 24 hours, and to do a formal investigation as well…though all this is pure speculation. It has US fingerprints on it though… -XT ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/30 "2006-07-31T09:04:33Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] And Iran is tacitly supporting Hezbollah. Everybody has a sponsor. In this case Israel is right inasmuch as they have a right to defend themselves. [/quote] That’s not the point. The point is that I, as an American, is tacitly responsible for Israel’s actions, therefore I take a greater interest in them. If I were Iranian I would spend much more of my time worrying about Hezbollah. [QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Are we ignoring the last 30 years and only counting the last few weeks in that assessment, or do you really believe that Hezbollah has not been vastly more damaging to Israel over that tie period? [/quote] Yes I think Israel has been much more damaging to Hezbollah and Lebanon over the last 30 years than the other way around. [QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Why? [/quote] For the same reasons I care, for example, more about the actions of a charity that I donate to than I do about a charity I do not donate to. [QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] The only way the US can ragin standing in regard to Israel with that part of the world is to abandon Israel completely. That would be Holocaust Part 2. [/quote] Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, having images of children being pulled from the rubble of a building sure doesn’t help our image in the middle east. Neither does being the lone western country supporting Israel’s continued attack. [QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Nobody? There are thousands that approve of it and prove it daily by launching rockets or detonating roadside bombs or blowing up buses. Hezbollah’s actions should be condemned early and often. [/QUOTE] I think you are taking “nobody” a bit too literally. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/31 "2006-07-31T09:18:05Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] That’s not even worth dignifying with a response, but since I’m here I’ll give it what it quite obviously deserves: :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] In other words, you have no good answer but don’t want to admit it. ---
**Author:** ![canadian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@canadian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canadian)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/32 "2006-07-31T15:10:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I note that you haven’t mentioned that HB IS deliberately targeting Israeli civilians in Israel…i.e. their intent when they fire those rockets is to hit and kill civilian targets. Could you please remind me, as my Google News service does not work and I just don’t have any access to TV and printed media and reading all these posts on the Boards make my memory hazy a bit… what is the official truth nowadays… Israel responded with missiles to kidnapping of soldiers or because rockets rained on Israeli cities? The question really is… who exactly started killing civilians, regardless collateral or deliberate? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/33 "2006-07-31T15:39:38Z")
Interesting comparative situation. > **[SUMMARY - Civilian Deaths in the NATO Air Campaign - Summary](https://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/nato/Natbm200.htm#P37_987)** > > Principal Findings > [@](#): > > However, the number of confirmed deaths is considerably smaller than both U.S. and Yugoslav public estimates. The post conflict casualty reports of the Yugoslav government vary, but coincide in estimating a civilian death toll of at least some 1,200 and as many as 5,700 civilians. On May 22, Margit Savovic, president of Yugoslav Committee for Cooperation with UNICEF said that "more than 1,200 civilians were killed and more than 5,000 [were] wounded."32 On July 14, Milovan Zivkovic, director of the Federal Office of Statistics, said at press conference that "estimations [of] about 1,200 killed have appeared, and some sources talk about more than 5,000 victims, some go even up to 18,000."33 According to the BETA independent news agency, Zivkovic also said that the 1,200 number publicized by the Yugoslav Committee for Cooperation with UNICEF pertained only to those killed during the two and a half months of the air campaign. “But the 5,000 and 5,700 numbers are exact as well, only they cover a longer period of time and various ways of losing life,” he said.34 Ambassador Djorde Lopicic, chief of international law at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA), told Human Rights Watch on August 5, 1999, that 2,000 civilians had died and over 10,000 were injured from NATObombing. At the lower end, even the 1,200 figures is more than twice the civilian death toll of around 500 that Human Rights Watch has been able to verify for the ninety known incidents involving civilian deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/34 "2006-07-31T15:42:23Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Appearently Israel has called a cease fire from air strikes for [48 hours](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/31/mideast.main/index.html) while they investigate just what happened. [/QUOTE] That was a mighty quick couple of days: [Israeli warplanes carried out strikes in southern Lebanon on Monday, hours after agreeing to temporarily halt air raids while investigating a bombing that killed at least 56 Lebanese civilians, mostly women and children seeking shelter.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel_625) ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/35 "2006-07-31T18:25:46Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] In other words, you have no good answer but don’t want to admit it. [/QUOTE] No, there is a good answer: you’re an idiot. Unless, of course, you can demonstrate that the Vatican, with authorization from the Pope, launched a violent attack on the United States. So, again I respond with this: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/36 "2006-07-31T18:29:39Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] No, there is a good answer: you’re an idiot. Unless, of course, you can demonstrate that the Vatican, with authorization from the Pope, launched a violent attack on the United States. [/QUOTE] Pretty much…though you will probably be spanked by a mod for saying it here. Not that it isn’t richly deserved. For myself I’m at the point where I just ignore Der’s over the top bullshit and ridiculous anti-American hyperbole. When he starts ranting about the US being a facist state, blah blah blah I just tune him out. -XT ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/37 "2006-07-31T23:06:40Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] No, there is a good answer: you’re an idiot. [/QUOTE] However, this answer does not belong in **GD**. If you need to insult him rather than ignoring him, take it to the **Pit**. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Dubious\_Weasle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b782af/32.png) [@Dubious\_Weasle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dubious_Weasle)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/38 "2006-08-02T14:43:12Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Why would they use a percision bomb for instance instead of, say, cluster munitions? Cluster munitions would probably work just as well, and be cheaper… [/QUOTE] Minor nitpick. The decision -not- to use cluster bombs to take out the rockets has nothing to do with minimizing civilian casualties. That’s an incidental effect. Cluster bombs are good for taking out massed troops or occasional territory denial in open areas. They are fairly ineffective at taking out individual small targets in an urban setting. Precision weapons are used primarily because they hit their targets. The smaller the target, the more important accuracy is. If you’re trying to hit a factory, a bunker, large troop formations you can use less accurate weapons because you can miss by a bit and still achieve a lot of damage. On the other hand, if you’re trying to hit a small mobile target in a setting that provides lots of cover [an urban setting for example] you want something precise. To sum up, precision weapons are favored because they have a better chance of achieving their objective. The fact that they reduce colateral damage is just a perk, not a design feature. > [@](#): > > As to your assertion that a launcher wasn’t (or may not have been) there…my own ‘evidence’ is simply the use of a percision guided bomb. You’ve seen how they work as well as I have. A laser is placed on the target and (in theory) the bomb steers itself to said target. Why in gods name would Israel fire such an expensive weapon if they DIDN’T have visual contact with a launcher (or other military target) > -XT Another minor point. There are many types of precision bombs with the “a ground troop paints the target with a laser” variety being just one. Many, including the laser guided variety, would not necessarily entail visual identification. As you were. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/39 "2006-08-03T00:06:11Z")
If Hezbolla is hiding behind the civilian populance, using them as human shields, they are effectively taking them hostage as in your typical image of a gunman using a poor chap as cover from fire. It´s not morally correct to kill the hostage to get to the bad guy, specially if the innocent to guilty ratio is so skewed as it seems on the case under consideration. Also it´s not moral if it isn´t done to prevent a larger loss of life, IIRC there have been about 20 civilian deaths from the rockets coming from Lebanon and more than 700 on that side of the border; collateral damage that´s the result of a campaign that may or may not end the threat from said rocket launches. IMHO and all that… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634/40 "2006-08-03T00:52:46Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] No, there is a good answer: you’re an idiot. Unless, of course, you can demonstrate that the Vatican, with authorization from the Pope, launched a violent attack on the United States. So, again I respond with this: :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Sexual assault on children isn’t violent ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-moral-limit-to-collateral-damage-inflicted-in-self-defense/366634.md?page=3)