All rights and all wrongs have long since blown away
For causes are ashes where children lie slain
Yeah…the horrible similarities are rather striking. And the endless cycle of violence is rather sickening. Maybe some day…
Naw…why don’t you respond with some objections? I was smarting a bit from the ‘childish’ thing when I wrote that…and also was trying to inject a bit of humor in a grim subject (for my own self…better sometimes to laugh than cry, and cry I did when I read the accounts this morning). So…leaving aside my ‘attitude’, what response do you have?
-XT
Serious question:
Why is Israel being castigated for taking steps in their defense and accidentally killing civilians, while Hezbollah, while not exactly getting a pass, is being defended indirectly by people/countries that state that Israel is “going too far” in their actions when Hezbollah is the very example of indiscriminate killing?
If Lebanon cannot or will not take action within their own borders, at what point does their government abdicate the right to govern? As I see it, the big problem here is that by Lebanon’s inaction with regard to Hezbollah, they have given Israel no other choice. It’s unfortunate that innocent people died, hell, it’s downright tragic, but if Lebanon had done their job and governed their own country by rooting out the cancer that’s been there for decades this whole thing could have been prevented.
That’s the real tragedy here.
Because the damgae caused by Hezbollah is so small in proportion to the response, that’s why. Should the US have used FAE on the Vatican in retaliation for the pedophila scandals ?
That’s not even worth dignifying with a response, but since I’m here I’ll give it what it quite obviously deserves: :rolleyes:
[ol]
[li]America, by providing Israel with weapons and support, is tacitly repsonsible for Israel’s actions. Therefore, as an American I place greater emphasis on Israel’s actions[/li][li]Israel has inflicted a much, much worse toll on the Lebanese population and infrastructure than Hezbollah has on the Israeli[/li][li]Since Israel recieves so much aid from America, as an American I both scrutinize their actions more and hold them to a higher standard[/li][li]America recieves blame for Israel’s actions, and hurts our standing in the Middle East. Therefore they catch flak from me when I believe their actions needlessly hurt America’s position[/li]No one approves of the targetting of civilians so repeatidly condeming Hizbollah’s actions is largely unnecessary[/ol]
And Iran is tacitly supporting Hezbollah. Everybody has a sponsor. In this case Israel is right inasmuch as they have a right to defend themselves.
Are we ignoring the last 30 years and only counting the last few weeks in that assessment, or do you really believe that Hezbollah has not been vastly more damaging to Israel over that tie period?
Why?
The only way the US can ragin standing in regard to Israel with that part of the world is to abandon Israel completely. That would be Holocaust Part 2.
Nobody? There are thousands that approve of it and prove it daily by launching rockets or detonating roadside bombs or blowing up buses. Hezbollah’s actions should be condemned early and often.
For whatever reason, there is (obviously) a double standard at work wrt this issue. Why? I suppose Israel is held to a higher standard than either Lebanon or HB (or the various other friendly and peaceloving powers in the region) by some…as it should be, since its a western style democracy. For others I think it revolves around a combination of ignorance of the actual history of whats going on there, coupled with a wide eyed acceptance of the propaganda spewed out by the various enemies of Israel…and there is a LOT of it. Lots of revisionist history, lots of mis-information, lots of spinning. For whatever reason, the Palestinian cause became fashionable in certain political circles and with certain western nations across the big water, and thats probably part of it too.
By actively supporting HB AND its various aims, Lebanon is not only abdicating the right to rule but putting itself rather firmly at blame for what has happened. Oh, I have no doubt they are distressed…they probably didn’t count on this thing escallating to what has happened, and are feeling the burn now. But just because they didn’t anticipating that THIS (proxy) attack against Israel would set them off, doesn’t mean (IMO) that they get a pass, responsibility wise.
I think you yourself have bought into the helpless Lebanon who just wants to get along meme. Personally, when a government actively speaks out its support for a paramilitary organization, they have to be prepared to face the consequences when that loose cannon goes off on the deck.
I do agree that its a tragic mess…and one I don’t see any answer too.
I never have gotten this one. Hezbollah places its military targets in civilian areas…in fact, they pretty much fight from the cover of civilians (at least wrt their rocket attacks). They do this deliberately for a variety of reasons…one of which however is to cause Israel to inflict those casualties so they can reap the propaganda rewards.
Israel is trying to hit those military targets…resulting in a higher civilian death toll through a combination of the fact that HB has used said civilians as a shield and the fact that Israel has a professional military, able to more effectively strike targets (and thus to cause greater casualties if something goes wrong or if people just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time).
HB on the other hand had DELIBERATELY targetted Israeli civilians in the border towns…and makes no bones about it. Fortunately HB is pretty fucking bad at actually HITTING those targets with the crude weapons they currently have. Otherwise the death toll civilian wise would be more even…and I suppose that then maybe HB would be in for its share of blame. Or something.
And yet, all this is used in some mysterious way to somehow condemn Israel (who isn’t targetting civilians directly) while giving HB a pass (who IS targetting civilians, but who is just bad at hitting them…but not for want of trying). As I said…I don’t get it.
I agree. As a western style democracy Israel SHOULD be held to a higher standard. I just happen to think that its held to an impossibly high standard (by some)…one that no nation in its position could possibly maintain given its strategic and tactical situation…and lets not forget its colorful history (and most importantly the history of its various neighbors).
Probably true…though our standing was never real high in some places there anyway. I don’t see why this should necessarily effect our policy toward Israel…not unless they start doing things that go beyond the pale (like carpet bombing Lebanese towns, or slaughtering Lebanese/Palestinian civilians indiscriminately).
And yet…some folks seem to take a seemingly endless delight in condeming Israel’s actions, while (seemingly) handwaving HB’s actions away, or justifying said actions with a dual standard. Why SHOULDN’T HB get the same treatment? Why should Lebanon, who supported HB (and I’m talking the militant wing here, not the political one) both verbally AND with funding get a pass? After all, they are the aggressor. The foundation of WHY they are being aggressive (i.e. trying to ‘liberate’ parts of Lebanon that were never PART of Lebanon, etc) is bullshit. They (HB, proxy for among others Lebanon itself) instigated hostilities by their continued low level attacks, kidnappings, etc. And they directly and consiously target civilians without even trying to make an exuse…hell, its their intent to kill civilians. The only good thing is, so far, they don’t have the weapons to really do this effectively. I think condemnation of HB should be as much or more (well, of course I think more) than Israel down the line…and responsibility for when civilians die during this conflict should be heaped on HB and Lebanon as well as Israel.
YMMV…
-XT
Just a quick update…
Appearently Israel has called a cease fire from air strikes for 48 hours while they investigate just what happened.
I wonder if HB calls a halt to their rocket attacks when they ‘accidentally’ hit civilian targets…
:dubious:
At a guess, evil America has put some pressure on Israel to wind this thing down…from behind the scenes. Probably pressure to halt for 48 hours, allow safe passage for 24 hours, and to do a formal investigation as well…though all this is pure speculation. It has US fingerprints on it though…
-XT
That’s not the point. The point is that I, as an American, is tacitly responsible for Israel’s actions, therefore I take a greater interest in them. If I were Iranian I would spend much more of my time worrying about Hezbollah.
Yes I think Israel has been much more damaging to Hezbollah and Lebanon over the last 30 years than the other way around.
For the same reasons I care, for example, more about the actions of a charity that I donate to than I do about a charity I do not donate to.
Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, having images of children being pulled from the rubble of a building sure doesn’t help our image in the middle east. Neither does being the lone western country supporting Israel’s continued attack.
I think you are taking “nobody” a bit too literally.
In other words, you have no good answer but don’t want to admit it.
Could you please remind me, as my Google News service does not work and I just don’t have any access to TV and printed media and reading all these posts on the Boards make my memory hazy a bit… what is the official truth nowadays… Israel responded with missiles to kidnapping of soldiers or because rockets rained on Israeli cities? The question really is… who exactly started killing civilians, regardless collateral or deliberate?
Interesting comparative situation.
That was a mighty quick couple of days: Israeli warplanes carried out strikes in southern Lebanon on Monday, hours after agreeing to temporarily halt air raids while investigating a bombing that killed at least 56 Lebanese civilians, mostly women and children seeking shelter.
No, there is a good answer: you’re an idiot. Unless, of course, you can demonstrate that the Vatican, with authorization from the Pope, launched a violent attack on the United States.
So, again I respond with this: :rolleyes:
Pretty much…though you will probably be spanked by a mod for saying it here. Not that it isn’t richly deserved.
For myself I’m at the point where I just ignore Der’s over the top bullshit and ridiculous anti-American hyperbole. When he starts ranting about the US being a facist state, blah blah blah I just tune him out.
-XT
However, this answer does not belong in GD. If you need to insult him rather than ignoring him, take it to the Pit.
[ /Moderating ]
Minor nitpick. The decision -not- to use cluster bombs to take out the rockets has nothing to do with minimizing civilian casualties. That’s an incidental effect.
Cluster bombs are good for taking out massed troops or occasional territory denial in open areas. They are fairly ineffective at taking out individual small targets in an urban setting.
Precision weapons are used primarily because they hit their targets. The smaller the target, the more important accuracy is. If you’re trying to hit a factory, a bunker, large troop formations you can use less accurate weapons because you can miss by a bit and still achieve a lot of damage.
On the other hand, if you’re trying to hit a small mobile target in a setting that provides lots of cover [an urban setting for example] you want something precise.
To sum up, precision weapons are favored because they have a better chance of achieving their objective. The fact that they reduce colateral damage is just a perk, not a design feature.
Another minor point. There are many types of precision bombs with the “a ground troop paints the target with a laser” variety being just one. Many, including the laser guided variety, would not necessarily entail visual identification.
As you were.
If Hezbolla is hiding behind the civilian populance, using them as human shields, they are effectively taking them hostage as in your typical image of a gunman using a poor chap as cover from fire.
It´s not morally correct to kill the hostage to get to the bad guy, specially if the innocent to guilty ratio is so skewed as it seems on the case under consideration. Also it´s not moral if it isn´t done to prevent a larger loss of life, IIRC there have been about 20 civilian deaths from the rockets coming from Lebanon and more than 700 on that side of the border; collateral damage that´s the result of a campaign that may or may not end the threat from said rocket launches.
IMHO and all that…
Sexual assault on children isn’t violent ?