# Is there a name for this common blues motif? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 4, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619 "2010-09-04T20:18:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/41 "2010-09-08T06:07:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I would still consider it to be an alteration, just like major blues is itself an alteration of the originally minor blues. The original blues progression, so far as I know, was not based on minor chords. I’m going to have to ask for a cite on that. Yes, there is a so-called “blues scale,” but it’s only an approximation of what goes on in blues melody and harmony. The ambiguity of the third is a big key to the blues sound, as well as a seventh that often lies between the minor and major seventh. Blues vocalists, depending on their style, will hit the third between the major and minor. Hell, even the Mannish Boy riff has this. Listen to riff closely. That harmonica is hitting sharp for a minor third, but below a major third. The guitar tabs for the Mannish Boy riff usually indicate a C natural to C-sharp hammer-on or bend to create this tension. To me, it’s clear that the riff is exploiting the tension of the third over the I chord. That tension is part of what makes the blues the blues. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/42 "2010-09-08T07:02:50Z")
**Snowboarder Bo** Scales divide up the octave in various steps, the different patterns give the scale it’s name and sound. Pentatonic scales divide the octave into 5 steps Diatonic scales divide it into 7 steps, and the Chromatic scale uses all 12 steps. (there are, of course, many other scales) Western harmony is solidly built on diatonic scales, the major, the minor and do re mi fa so la ti do are all diatonic scales. So, if you were playing in the key of C, and you were improvising over a C chord, and you played C E G, you’d be playing chord tones. If you played C E F G you’d be playing a diatonic passing tone (usually shortened to just passing tone) because F is in the C major _scale_, but not in the C major _chord_. But, if you were really hip, and you played C E F# G you’d be playing a chromatic passing tone, because F# isn’t in the key of C at all. Of course, if you jam to blues or rock progressions, you’re already doing this because both use melody and harmony notes that aren’t in the key. Personally, if I play an extended blues solo, I’ll invariably use every note in the chromatic scale eventually, albeit some more than others. ---
**Author:** ![Mixolydian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Mixolydian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mixolydian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/43 "2010-09-08T13:41:22Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > I would still consider it to be an alteration, just like major blues is itself an alteration of the originally minor blues. > > The original blues progression, so far as I know, was not based on minor chords. I’m going to have to ask for a cite on that. > > The ambiguity of the third is a big key to the blues sound, as well as a seventh that often lies between the minor and major seventh. Blues vocalists, depending on their style, will hit the third between the major and minor. Hell, even the Mannish Boy riff has this. Listen to riff closely. That harmonica is hitting sharp for a minor third, but below a major third. The guitar tabs for the Mannish Boy riff usually indicate a C natural to C-sharp hammer-on or bend to create this tension. To me, it’s clear that the riff is exploiting the tension of the third over the I chord. That tension is part of what makes the blues the blues Couldn’t agree more…the harmonica is playing sharp because he’s playing cross harp, and bending down from the major 3rd. I hear it bend back up closer to the major at the tail end too. \*\*If \*\*the original blues progression was minor (I have my doubts too), once harp players started playing cross harp as standard accompaniment, the major 3rd almost surely found its way into the “blues scale”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/44 "2010-09-08T15:54:07Z")
> [@Mixolydian](#): > > Couldn’t agree more…the harmonica is playing sharp because he’s playing cross harp, and bending down from the major 3rd. I hear it bend back up closer to the major at the tail end too. Exactly. I play a bit of harp myself, and when you play blues, you usually do it cross-harp (although 3rd position is used, too. Theoretically, you could play it in any position if you’re a diatonic master like Howard Levy, although certain positions sound better than others for reasons I’ll explain to readers.) One reason for playing blues cross harp is you really want that third to fall on a bendable note. You can hit it major, minor, or right in between, and have the ability to slide up and down, keeping the tonality ambiguous. Plus, in cross-harp, you also have the nice bend on the four draw, which hits another “blue note,” the raised fourth/flatted fifth of the scale. And the two draw bend hits your minor seventh, and you can play it as minor or major as you want. And the one draw bend is another “blue note.” It’s pretty much the perfect set-up for soulful blues and why, in my opinion, a diatonic harmonica sounds better to me than a chromatic in blues (which is limited in its bending) and even jazz, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![I-VI-ii-V](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I-VI-ii-V](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I-VI-ii-V)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/45 "2010-09-09T06:31:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You know that standard 12 bar blues flourish when the progression ends on that little chromatic , three note walkup back to the tonic (like if you’re playng in E and you end with D-D#-E…“da-na-na”)? That’s an example. I think you are referring to the twelfth bar when it goes chromatically to the V7 (not the tonic) : | IV7 - #IV7 - V7 | This could be D - D# - E, but in a key of A (not E). In a slow blues, this turnaround will often include a IV in the previous measure (bar 11): | I7 IV7 | I7 IV7 #IV7 V7 |, then back to the top [or ending] An example of a chromatic ending in the blues would be: bII7 - I7 (like in “Red House”). And to reiterate the answer to the OP, it’s just a riff over the tonic: 1 - 4 - 1 - b3 - 1 \<— scale degrees, not chords And to second **puly’s** comment, I’ve also played the “Mannish Boy” riff over a basic 12 bar blues progression…well, just the first 8 bars: | I7 | / | / | / | | IV7 | / | I7 | / | It doesn’t make sense to play it over the last 4 bars (at least for the tune I played): | V7 | IV7 | I7 | V7 | ---
**Author:** ![Tassvarg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@Tassvarg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tassvarg)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/46 "2010-09-09T10:08:30Z")
It is a short riff that doesn’t necessarily has to be harmonized, but it certainly can be. The riff: A D A C A If the bass player like to just pump the note A i would consider it a melody over the I chord. If the bassplayer for example plays: A D - C A I would say the the D note has a strong IV feeling to it. If I was playing keyboard I would add some note (F# maybe) to emphasize that. With the bassline going: A G - G# A it could well be harmonized as: - VII - V I, the five with an augmented fifth, and the VII diminished like in a mixolydian scale. A few ways of the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/47 "2010-09-09T14:27:33Z")
> [@I-VI-ii-V](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > You know that standard 12 bar blues flourish when the progression ends on that little chromatic , three note walkup back to the tonic (like if you’re playng in E and you end with D-D#-E…“da-na-na”)? That’s an example. > > I think you are referring to the twelfth bar when it goes chromatically to the V7 (not the tonic) : | IV7 - #IV7 - V7 | > > This could be D - D# - E, but in a key of A (not E). Yeah, that’s correct. I don’t know why I had it in my head as the tonic. I should have picked up a guitar. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/48 "2010-09-09T15:46:09Z")
> [@I-VI-ii-V](#): > > An example of a chromatic ending in the blues would be: bII7 - I7 (like in “Red House”). Continuing the theoretical geekery, this would be an example of a tritone substitution. (Normally, a V7-I, the V7 is replaced by its tritone, which is the bII7). Also can be analyzed as an augmented sixth chord, for more classical theorists. > [@](#): > > And to second **puly’s** comment, I’ve also played the “Mannish Boy” riff over a basic 12 bar blues progression…well, just the first 8 bars: > > | I7 | / | / | / | > | IV7 | / | I7 | / | > > It doesn’t make sense to play it over the last 4 bars (at least for the tune I played): > > | V7 | IV7 | I7 | V7 | Did you transpose up for the IV and V chords, or just stuck with the same melodic pattern? If you transpose the lick, you could make it work. ---
**Author:** ![I-VI-ii-V](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I-VI-ii-V](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I-VI-ii-V)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/49 "2010-09-09T21:14:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I should have picked up a guitar. That’s what I did 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![I-VI-ii-V](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I-VI-ii-V](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I-VI-ii-V)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/50 "2010-09-09T21:48:05Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > > [@I-VI-ii-V](#): > > > > An example of a chromatic ending in the blues would be: bII7 - I7 (like in “Red House”). > > Continuing the theoretical geekery, this would be an example of a tritone substitution. (Normally, a V7-I, the V7 is replaced by its tritone, which is the bII7). Also can be analyzed as an augmented sixth chord, for more classical theorists. Yes! I would stick with the tritone substitution analysis. More of a “jazz-based” explanation than an augmented sixth. I need to wrap my head around an augmented sixth chord a little more (3 types…hmmm). > [@pulykamell](#): > > > [@I-VI-ii-V](#): > > > > And to second **puly’s** comment, I’ve also played the “Mannish Boy” riff over a basic 12 bar blues progression…well, just the first 8 bars: > > > > | I7 | / | / | / | > > | IV7 | / | I7 | / | > > > > It doesn’t make sense to play it over the last 4 bars (at least for the tune I played): > > > > | V7 | IV7 | I7 | V7 | > > Did you transpose up for the IV and V chords, or just stuck with the same melodic pattern? If you transpose the lick, you could make it work. I transposed the lick to the IV in bars 5 & 6, but played eighths or some walking thing in bars 9-12. ---
**Author:** ![LunarPlexus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@LunarPlexus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LunarPlexus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/51 "2010-09-09T21:59:21Z")
> [@Jaledin](#): > > I was fretting about that little roman numeral “analysis” also … I don’t know what you folks are talking about, but I did enjoy the fret pun. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/52 "2010-09-12T23:47:34Z")
I saw the question and immediately thought of Albert Collins. Made me giggle. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6n9ZVluQP4) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/53 "2010-09-13T03:15:42Z")
I don’t know if I can find a cite for my specific statement, but I can’t find one against it, either. I really can’t find anything on how blues developed before it was major chords with a minor pentatonic melody with blue notes. I could very well be mistaken on what I’ve always assumed to be true. I also still think the iv sounds better if you play the riff as chords. And I think the riff sounds hollow with just octaves–you at least need to throw in the fifths. Or maybe even some quartal harmony. (For example, Esus#9 sounds really good on that riff from that [Hanson video](http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=104317949#) posted here a while back.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/54 "2010-09-13T03:28:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > . And I think the riff sounds hollow with just octaves–you at least need to throw in the fifths. Mannish Boy doesn’t have those, though. (At least, not that I hear.) “Bad to the Bone” employs fuller harmonies, but it also sounds, how shall I put it, “white” to me. I feel those fuller harmonies start taking the song out of blues and more into traditional western harmonies. YMMV. (I don’t mind harmonizing with the fourths/fifths though.) As far as minor blues goes, my understanding was that it was a more modern, jazzier spin-off off the blues. The original unaccompanied work songs, call-and-hollers, etc., were neither really major or minor, with the third vacillating between the tonalities (which is, as I said above, a big part of what makes the blues the blues. It is not simply a pentatonic minor scale.) I would also venture to guess that’s why a lot of traditional blues accompaniments are third-less (like the root-fifth, root-sixth, root-minor-seventh patterns)–in order to provide space for the ambiguous third. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/55 "2010-09-13T06:32:50Z")
You know, I’ve often speculated that the evolution of the blues owes a lot to the weaknesses of the guitar. Cheap instruments, with bad intonation, poorly spaced frets, and mismatched strings being carried around in gunny sacks in the hot humid south. I’m sure the cultural history has a lot to do with it, but that’s a recipe for dissonance that makes all 7th chords and 1/4 note bends and ambiguous 3rds seem inevitable. Well, it’s a theory at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/56 "2010-09-13T13:22:21Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > You know, I’ve often speculated that the evolution of the blues owes a lot to the weaknesses of the guitar. Cheap instruments, with bad intonation, poorly spaced frets, and mismatched strings being carried around in gunny sacks in the hot humid south. I’m sure the cultural history has a lot to do with it, but that’s a recipe for dissonance that makes all 7th chords and 1/4 note bends and ambiguous 3rds seem inevitable. > Well, it’s a theory at any rate. No argument - when you play an old Gibson L1 or L2 like the kind Robert Johnson is holding in the famous photo, or an old Stella or Kay - they do kinda sound like sophisticated cigar boxes: simple, woody, primitive. And the necks are quite big and often have a deep V profile. Makes ya play different. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/57 "2010-09-13T14:00:33Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > You know, I’ve often speculated that the evolution of the blues owes a lot to the weaknesses of the guitar. Cheap instruments, with bad intonation, poorly spaced frets, and mismatched strings being carried around in gunny sacks in the hot humid south. I’m sure the cultural history has a lot to do with it, but that’s a recipe for dissonance that makes all 7th chords and 1/4 note bends and ambiguous 3rds seem inevitable. But why only some notes and chords? Unless the blues was _always_ played in the same key, why would only the 3rds, 6ths & 7ths of the scale be affected but not the others? And why would all guitars have the same defect? They weren’t all made in the same way, from the same materials or by the same person. Not a good theory, IMHO. More likely the blues inflections were borrowed from African folk music. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/58 "2010-09-14T03:03:50Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > More likely the blues inflections were borrowed from African folk music. well, no doubt they are, that’s part of what I meant by cultural. OTOH who said anything about them all having the same defect? What I’m suggesting is that a variety of defects, common on cheap guitars that are kicked around, could be covered up with all 7th chords and lots of blue notes. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/59 "2010-09-14T03:24:40Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > > [@Musicat](#): > > > > More likely the blues inflections were borrowed from African folk music. > > well, no doubt they are, that’s part of what I meant by cultural. OTOH who said anything about them all having the same defect? What I’m suggesting is that a variety of defects, common on cheap guitars that are kicked around, could be covered up with all 7th chords and lots of blue notes. I’m not sold on this theory, especially since the blue thirds and sevenths appear in vocal melodies that, presumably, predate the blues in unaccompanied work songs and field hollers. [A litte about the blues scale](http://books.google.com/books?id=kuz4EHH05I4C&pg=PT44&lpg=PT44&dq=field+hollers+blues+scale&source=bl&ots=7ppgljHj-I&sig=cS1yAQEqiPa_J259c3U1kNqU_s0&hl=en&ei=vOiOTLjuIpSgnQeqtuzQDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=field%20hollers%20blues%20scale&f=false). Read the bit under “blue notes and syncopation.” ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619/60 "2010-09-14T03:31:19Z")
Interesting stuff. I used “ri” as a raised nine, true to my habitual way of notating things. Whatever melts your butter, if it’s a flat third, or whatever, it’s cool with me. I still think that the Fa is often played as a IV7 or even IV9 chord (or is at least suggested by partial inclusion of the 13th degree of the tonic – e.g. F# in an A blues). I think that’s what gives the motion to this motif/riff, and gives it a firm, (plagal) cadential quality. I can’t remember what tune but Junior Mance in Chicago blues mode on “Buddy and the Juniors” plays it somewhat like this (it’s that tune “On the seventh hour, of the seventh day,” the super famous tune everyone knows), and I KNOW I’ve heard Otis Spain throw in that partial IV7 all the time. For me the qualifying is the inclusion of the 13th of the parent scale (the third of the IV chord) and the _sound_ which is cadential to me – it has a directionality to it not dissimilar from a nice churchy “aaa—men” (but with frequently nastier lyric). That said, I’m still happy to go N. C. route – if it has to be analyzed, and I agree it could be, I’d amend my earlier i/iii (the C natural in the A blues riff) to a I7/iii. It’d probably sound pretty bad if someone were to harmonize the riff a la Manhattan Transfer or Oliver Nelson, though. I’d leave in the IV7 as a (partially voiced) chord) and stick everything else in one variant of I7, as I think was my original attempt to hack it out theory-wise. What a fun little geek-fest – I was surprised this was still going on. What riff’s next? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-common-blues-motif/552619.md?page=4)