# Is there a name for this type of classical music? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 29, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238 "2003-05-29T12:05:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gazelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Gazelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gazelle)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/1 "2003-05-29T12:05:36Z")
El Hubbo and I were discussing classical music in the car last night and were wondering… Is there a name for the type of classicial music in which the composer tries to tell a story or paint a picture? For example, I remember reading a symphony program that described each movement as a part of a spring day. Fabricated Silly Example: First Movement: Spring morning, fawn wakes up in a clearing. Second Movement: Bees visit flowers. Third Movement: Leaf flows down babbling brook. Fourth Movement: Hunter prince appears, looking manly. Fifth Movement: The hunt. Sixth Movement: Seamstress princess appears, bosoms heaving… I don’t know if this type of music is always a symphony. Any ideas? ---
**Author:** ![pjd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pjd/32/3009_2.png) [@pjd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjd)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/2 "2003-05-29T12:35:50Z")
Hmmmm not sure matey. Conceptual ? In “rock” music, you get “concept albums”. (symphonies usually have just 4 movements) ---
**Author:** ![Gazelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Gazelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gazelle)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/3 "2003-05-29T12:49:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pjd \* > \*\*(symphonies usually have just 4 movements) \*\* Not _always_ though, right? ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/4 "2003-05-29T12:59:46Z")
IIRC it is called ‘programmatic music’. An example is Beethoven’s 6th symphony, Pastorale, which is a bit like your fictitious example. Another example is Vivaldi’s _Four seasons_, which actually was written around a set of sonnets on the Four seasons. I think it became more popular at the end of the 19th century. See for example Debussy. **Gazelle** : Traditional symphonies (that is, from Haydn-Mozart-Beethoven times) have four parts. Ideally these are as follows: 1. Fast movement in sonata-form. 2. Slow movement. 3. Dance-like movement in three-quarter beat. 4. Fast movement, often a rondo. But this model is something that was later deduced from the actual works. The composers themselves never took this as a rule or strait-jacket. Indeed, Beethoven’s 6th has five movements, while Mozart’s 32nd and 38th each have three movements. Later composers (romantic times onwards) have slowly broken away from the classic model. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/5 "2003-05-29T13:03:02Z")
[Pastorale](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pastorale) > [@](#): > > An instrumental or vocal composition with a tender melody in a moderately slow rhythm, suggestive of traditional shepherds’ music and idyllic rural life. Also sometimes called a pastoral symphony. Lots of bees and dew and shit. ---
**Author:** ![Gazelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Gazelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gazelle)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/6 "2003-05-29T13:15:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*Lots of bees and dew and shit. \*\* Oh man… hilarious! I’m dyin’ here! ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/7 "2003-05-29T13:15:37Z")
Beethoven’s 6th: > [@](#): > > The Pastoral Symphony consists of the following movements: > > 1. The Awakening of Cheerful Feelings on Arriving in the Country (played Allegro ma non troppo) > 2. Scene by the Brook (played Andante molto mosso) > 3. Merry Gathering of Country Fold (played Allegro) > 4. Thunderstorm, Tempest (played Allegro) > 5. Shepherd’s Song: Happy and Thankful Feelings after the Storm (played Allegretto). From [RottenTomatoes](http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/BeethovenSymphonyNo6Pastoral-1039113/about.php). Quite like your ‘silly example’. **Squink** : a Pastorale is at best a subgenre. In fact, thinking it over, **Gazelle** may be mixing several things. - Programmatic music. Music intended to depict specific events. - Pastorale. Music designed for giving a ‘pastoral’, countryside mood (without using specific sound effects or depicting specific events). - (Symphonic) Tone Poem. ([see here](http://www.incompetech.com/music/poem.html)) A symphony-like piece meant to depict a scene or set of scenes. ---
**Author:** ![Marathon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Marathon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marathon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/8 "2003-05-29T13:31:02Z")
If I used the most basic part of your definition, **Gazelle** - music that tells a story - I’d classify it as programmatic music. **TTT** mentioned tone poems - I believe that all tone poems are, by definition, programmatic. Richard Strauss was a great master of the tone poem, and all of his definitely have a specific story in mind (though they aren’t multi-movement like a symphony - they have different _sections_, but take place all in one “movement”). In fact, I’m seeing _Ein Heldenleben_ performed on Saturday - a textbook example of program music. That said, there are some works that combine all of that which is mentioned above. In fact, what you describe in your OP sounds very much like Mahler’s 3rd symphony - right down to the number of movements. I googled and found [this](http://ccins.camosun.bc.ca/~dbarker/gm/Third.html) for you to read, if you want - if my memory serves, it’s a pretty good description of Mahler 3, at least compared to the book I read while studying it. ---
**Author:** ![Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rex_fenestrarum/32/7265_2.png) [@Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rex_Fenestrarum)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/9 "2003-05-29T13:56:22Z")
So Beethoven’s _Wellington’s Victory_ is considered “programmatic music”? Just so I’m clear. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/10 "2003-05-29T14:15:27Z")
Gustav Holst’s “The Planets” and Modest Mussorgsky’s “Pictures at an Exhibition” seem to fall into the category the OP is talking about. That is, a unified (sometimes loosely) work consisting of several pieces telling a story related to a common theme. “Programmatic music” would be the most common heading under which such works are lumped. ---
**Author:** ![bifar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bifar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bifar)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/11 "2003-05-29T15:02:31Z")
I’ve never heard of ‘programmatic music’ (may be a US thing) but have heard of ‘tone poem’ and ‘symphonic poem’ for Holst’s Planets and Richard Strauss’s stuff, etc. You could also lump them under ‘Romantic’ (rather than Baroque or Classical) cos all your composers in that period (after the Eroica and before Stravinsky, ish) were fond of that type of soppy non-abstract style. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/12 "2003-05-29T15:20:59Z")
But a “tone poem” evokes by hearing, whereas “programmatic music” such as Pictures at an Exhibition, attempts to evoke a visual image from the music. For instance, take the famous “galloping horses” sequence from the overture to “Light Cavalry.” It’s supposed to make you hear – and see – horses. Vivaldi’s Four Seasons is supposed to make you see (for instance) the cold cabin room with the grandfather clock. Strauss’ “Till Eulenspiegel’s Merry Pranks” is supposed to make you see T.E. throwing pies on people’s faces. Strauss’ “Ein Heldenleben,” on the other hand, is supposed to make you think about the abstract greatness of the individual, but without resorting to any specific visual images. That’s a “tone poem.” (However, opinions are like zits…everybody has 'em, they are usually not attractive, and they come and go with the passage of time…) Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Marathon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Marathon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marathon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/13 "2003-05-29T16:09:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Trinopus \* > **Strauss’ “Ein Heldenleben,” on the other hand, is supposed to make you think about the abstract greatness of the individual, but without resorting to any specific visual images. That’s a "tone poem."** But _Heldenleben_ _does_ deal with specifics, at least to some degree - “The Hero’s Companion”, the Battle sequence, the Hero’s “works of peace”, etc. These are all specific images, to me - pretty much as specific as the ones in _Till_. In that regard, I don’t see much of a difference between _Heldenleben_ and the other ones. _All_ of these - _Till, Heldenleben, Zarathustra, Don Juan, Don Quixote, Death and Transfiguration_, to name the “big” ones - are considered tone poems. A subtle distinction, and probably totally subjective, so nothing I’m saying here really matters, I suppose. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marathon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Marathon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marathon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/14 "2003-05-29T16:18:56Z")
One thing I forgot to mention about _Heldenleben_, and then I’ll stop, I promise. You can easily “hear” the “critics” of the hero in parts of the piece - they are represented by the chatty-sounding woodwinds, with their clipped, staccato high 16ths against triplets, etc. This is something intended and specific, and easily as “visual” as the pie-throwing in _Till_. OK, that’s it. (Can you tell I had my score to _Heldenleben_ out a couple of nights ago?) ---
**Author:** ![Thin\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@Thin\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thin_Ice)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/15 "2003-05-29T16:19:55Z")
One of the definitions of BALLET is: A musical composition written or used for this dance form. Swan Lake comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/16 "2003-05-29T16:25:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Barrytown \* > \*\*You can easily “hear” the “critics” of the hero in parts of the piece - they are represented by the chatty-sounding woodwinds, with their clipped, staccato high 16ths against triplets, etc. This is something intended and specific, and easily as “visual” as the pie-throwing in _Till_. > > OK, that’s it. (Can you tell I had my score to _Heldenleben_ out a couple of nights ago?) \*\* I’m jealous! All I’ve got is an old LP! By the way, for years, I’ve wanted to do Till Eulenspiegel with Mickey Mouse, ala the Sorcerer’s Apprentice. The scene where they hang him by the neck until dead would be … um … interesting! Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Marathon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Marathon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marathon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/17 "2003-05-29T16:44:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Trinopus \* > **Till Eulenspiegel with Mickey Mouse** You’ll pay for this! Now Till Eulenspiegel is forever ruined for me! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/18 "2003-05-29T16:59:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TTT \* > \*\* > Traditional symphonies (that is, from Haydn-Mozart-Beethoven times) have four parts. Ideally these are as follows: > > 1. Fast movement in sonata-form. > 2. Slow movement. > 3. Dance-like movement in three-quarter beat. > 4. Fast movement, often a rondo. > \*\* That is known as a “sonata form” symphony. There is no single “symphony” form, since “symphony” refers simply to more than one movement of music to be played in a single setting. Hence “sym-” (together) “-phony” (sounds). A symphony can be a pastorale and a sonata and programmatic, or none of the above. Now, technically, a tone poem and a rhapsody are not symphonies, since they only consist of a single movement. But a symphony could include a tone poem and a rhapsody. ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/19 "2003-05-29T17:56:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*That is known as a “sonata form” symphony. There is no single “symphony” form, since “symphony” refers simply to more than one movement of music to be played in a single setting. Hence “sym-” (together) “-phony” (sounds). > > A symphony can be a pastorale and a sonata and programmatic, or none of the above. > > Now, technically, a tone poem and a rhapsody are not symphonies, since they only consist of a single movement. But a symphony could include a tone poem and a rhapsody. \*\* _Prepares to invite people to chant something about “Stuff” and other stuff but decides not to_ 😃 ahem 😉 No, the term “symphony” has nothing to do with the number of movements, but rather with the number of “voices” (not human voices though) originally, and later with the number of instruments involved. Thus, one-movement symphonies, like Shostakovich’s nr. 2, are still regarded as symphonies, despite not having many movements. In the baroque era, a sinfonia was an orchestral foreplay to anything from an opera to a suite. Interestingly, Bach’s so called “three part inventions” are actually also called “sinfonie”. What we today call “symphonies” got their name from the 18th century practice of writing 3 and 4 movement pieces for the beginning of a concert. We have examples of pieces that would fit today’s definition of a symphony, but were not regarded as such by their composers. Consider Haydn’s divertimenti for example. So, what happened was that a music form that served for introductions became so popular that it was regarded as a form of its own right. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238/20 "2003-05-29T19:18:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Trinopus \* > \*\*Strauss’ “Till Eulenspiegel’s Merry Pranks” is supposed to make you see T.E. throwing pies on people’s faces. \*\* 😕 Wasn’t Till Eulenspiegel the lead singer for Rammstein? :dubious: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-name-for-this-type-of-classical-music/178238.md?page=2)