# Is there a non-bigoted reason to be anti-same-sex-marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222 "2021-07-24T20:41:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/243 "2021-07-25T19:42:12Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > If they use their religion as an excuse to be bigots, probably all I think you need to pick a lane. Either Christian bakers are in no danger of being shut down or all Christian bakers should be shut down. Which lane are you choosing? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/244 "2021-07-25T19:45:58Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > The problem with your hypothetical is that I cannot imagine such a scenario. As far as I know, there is no such ethnic group. That was a description of an argument given for keeping Black people enslaved. I’ve seen versions of that – generally leaving out the enslavement part – being given quite recently. In any case, here it’s a hypothetical; and the assumption is specifically that the group is a racial/ethnic group, not a group of people with any specific medical condition (though I will note that there’s a whole lot of variation in the effects of Down’s.). > [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Are you that oblivious that you do not see that this is exactly how White people have regarded Africans, Native Americans and even Asians for much of history? > [@kevlaw](#): > > That sounds bigoted to me. What makes you think I am oblivious? If that sounds bigoted to you, then you don’t require animus as part of your definition of the word “bigoted.” And presumably they think you’re oblivious to that argument having been made about specific groups because you said > [@kevlaw](#): > > The problem with your hypothetical is that I cannot imagine such a scenario. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/245 "2021-07-25T19:47:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Christians seem to have no problem providing a countless number of other products and services to non-Christians, gay people, and people who disagree with any number of Christian points of faith or dogma. This is a discussion about Christian attitudes to same-sex marriage, not Christian hypocrisy. > [@RickJay](#): > > If a Christian wishes to stand on a personal principle and shut their bakery down instead of serving a customer, that’s entirely their decision. Either Christian bakers are being shut down and you are Ok with that or they are not being shut down. You have argued both sides. Which side should I engage with? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/246 "2021-07-25T19:50:25Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > Because, if SSM becomes legal, religious folk will start to lose their jobs and, possibly in the future, incur financial penalties. Well, no. _Homophobes_ may lose their jobs, and possibly incur financial penalties. Most _religious_ people wouldn’t be affected by it at all. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/247 "2021-07-25T19:52:12Z")
Yeah … there’s really nothing new under the sun – particularly for those whose understanding of US history goes back even a very few generations: [a very quick read] [http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/publicrightsprivateconscience/2014/08/22/religious-discrimination-and-racism-its-not-old-news/](http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/publicrightsprivateconscience/2014/08/22/religious-discrimination-and-racism-its-not-old-news/) This may very well be part of what a large swath of 'Muricans _really_ means when they talk of “Making America Great Again,” but it’s utterly repugnant. “Economic hardship” (along with religion) was used as an existential defense of Slavery (and segregation) in the US, too. So @Kevlaw 's little tease of a Slippery Slope argument utterly falls flat – particularly as a way to couch an inherently bigoted argument as something pecuniary instead. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/248 "2021-07-25T19:52:43Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And presumably they think you’re oblivious to that argument having been made about specific groups because you said > > > [@kevlaw](#): > > > > The problem with your hypothetical is that I cannot imagine such a scenario. This is selective quoting and disingenuous. I said that I can’t imagine such a scenario because, as far as I know, there are no differences in intellectual capacity between ethnic groups. Your attempt to frame my words to imply the opposite is dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/249 "2021-07-25T19:54:08Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > Either Christian bakers are being shut down and you are Ok with that or they are not being shut down. You have argued both sides. Which side should I engage with? It’s also worth nothing that every time a fish breaks wind in the Indian Ocean, an American Christian is being persecuted. Just ask them. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/250 "2021-07-25T19:55:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > _Homophobes_ may lose their jobs, and possibly incur financial penalties. And now we are back, full circle. If you define all arguments against same-sex marriage as homophobic, then all arguments against same-sex marriage will be homophobic. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/251 "2021-07-25T19:57:47Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > This may very well be part of what a large swath of 'Muricans _really_ means when they talk of “Making America Great Again,” but it’s utterly repugnant. I’m not sure why this is relevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/252 "2021-07-25T19:58:09Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I suppose that’s another a non-bigoted reason to be anti-SSM: I can make more money if SSM is not allowed. Or a politician realizing that the path to election is being anti-SSM. It may be the case that a person doing that is not bigoted, but they are catering to bigots, so still taking a bigoted position. > [@filmore](#): > > I certainly think that’s wrong, but I would think they were doing it for personal gain rather than because they are a bigot. Personally, I find someone who caters to bigotry for personal gain to be far worse than a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/253 "2021-07-25T19:58:58Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > I’m not sure why this is relevant to this discussion. Then feel free to focus on the other parts of my post. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/254 "2021-07-25T19:59:25Z")
So, you are not making an argument that there are religious reasons to oppose SSM? Okay then, I think that we are done. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/255 "2021-07-25T20:00:36Z")
I think that you have defined it already, did you forget your own cite? ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/256 "2021-07-25T20:00:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you are not making an argument that there are religious reasons to oppose SSM? I’m making exactly this argument. I can explain it again if you are not clear. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/257 "2021-07-25T20:01:31Z")
Getting back to the OP, I don’t see how there could be a “non-bigoted” reason to oppose SSM, because it’s circular - nowadays, society basically _defines_ such sentiment as bigotry. We’ve defined it in such a way that you can’t oppose SSM without being considered bigoted. To borrow a German(?) expression, it would be like asking, “How can I wash my back without getting myself wet?” Well, you can’t - washing, by definition, entails applying water to something. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/258 "2021-07-25T20:03:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I think that you have defined it already, did you forget your own cite? The definition I shared said nothing about imposing a belief on others. I think you made this up. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/259 "2021-07-25T20:04:28Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > SSM becomes legal, religious folk will start to lose their jobs and, possibly in the future, incur financial penalties. SSM _IS_ legal. You are invoking a slippery slope argument that has already been proven to be false. About the only people who could possibly lose their jobs over this would be bigots who refuse to comply with the law, like the county clerk in Kentucky that refused to do her job and provide marriage licenses to SS couples. But that’s like complaining that if we let black people eat at the white lunch counter, then racist servers who refuse to serve them may lose their jobs. In other words, simply catering to the bigots. No big loss there. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/260 "2021-07-25T20:05:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Getting back to the OP, I don’t see how there could be a “non-bigoted” reason to oppose SSM, because it’s circular - nowadays, society basically _defines_ such sentiment as bigotry What’s your definition of bigotry? And why does it differ from the one in the dictionaries? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/261 "2021-07-25T20:06:00Z")
If they were good Catholics, they would refuse to provide service to divorcees as well. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/262 "2021-07-25T20:07:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > About the only people who could possibly lose their jobs over this would be bigots who refuse to comply with the law, like the county clerk in Kentucky that refused to do her job and provide marriage licenses to SS couples. Are you arguing that people are not losing their jobs or that they are losing their jobs and that’s ok with you? It’s not clear from what you said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222.md?page=14)