# Is there a non-bigoted reason to be anti-same-sex-marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222 "2021-07-24T20:41:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/283 "2021-07-25T20:31:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you can’t run your business without discriminating against people, you shouldn’t have a business. That’s one vote for SSM will result in businesses being shut down. Any more? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/284 "2021-07-25T20:32:17Z")
But they are still not being _shut down._ They are choosing to no longer serve the public. Is a lunch counter that closes rather than people who are black being _shut down_? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/285 "2021-07-25T20:33:54Z")
No, that’s a statement that there will be bigots who choose to close rather than not discriminate. Their own fault, they made that choice. You would make the same exact argument against desegregation, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/286 "2021-07-25T20:37:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But that’s not the same as being shut down because they’re Christian, is it? That’s being shut down because they engaged in illegal activity based on civil rights law. My argument was that a change in the law would result in businesses being shut down. Miller says they _should_ be shut down. So does what\_exit. You added the bit about ’because they are Christian’. That wasn’t there before. I call that goalpost moving. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/287 "2021-07-25T20:39:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But they are still not being _shut down._ They are choosing to no longer serve the public. Nice business you have there. Would be a shame if you were to choose to shut it down. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/288 "2021-07-25T20:43:20Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > That’s one vote for SSM will result in businesses being shut down. Any more? Because of SSM? No. It’s entirely possible to have legal SSM and legal discrimination against queer people at the same time. _Laws prohibiting discrimination against queer people_ might lead to businesses being shut down, although more likely is that bigots who own businesses will voluntarily shutter rather than just act like a decent human. But it’s possible that some particularly obstinate owner will insist on running his business in a discriminatory manner until he accumulates enough fines that the government seizes his business. I don’t think it has actually happened, but it certainly could. > [@RickJay](#): > > But that’s not the same as being shut down because they’re Christian, is it? Absolutely correct, and literally the exact point I’d just been making to **kevlaw**. So nerts to me, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/289 "2021-07-25T20:44:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, that’s a statement that there will be bigots You say bigot, I say sincerely religious Christians. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You would make the same exact argument against desegregation, wouldn’t you? What evidence do you have to make this slanderous assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/290 "2021-07-25T20:49:55Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > What’s an acceptable number of Christian bakeries shut down? The exact same number as the number of Christian bakeries that refuse to serve gay people. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/291 "2021-07-25T20:50:58Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > You say bigot, I say sincerely religious Christians. You act like there’s some definitional opposition between those terms. A sincerely held religious belief that gay people should be discriminated against is still bigotry. Religion isn’t a “get out of jail free” card for toxic beliefs. Muslims who believe they are instructed by God to kill Jews are still bigots. Pentecostals who think they have a Biblically-derived right to “discipline” their wives are still misogynists. You can’t evade the moral responsibility for your beliefs by offloading it on to an imaginary character. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/292 "2021-07-25T21:10:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > A sincerely held religious belief that gay people should be discriminated against is still bigotry. We covered this upthread a bit perhaps you missed it. Anyhoo, I don’t feel like going it over again. My original position was that if you decide, apriori, that all possible arguments for a position are bigoted then all arguments will sound bigoted and you’ll never hear opposing arguments. Your circle will shrink and you will hear even less of your opponents arguments. Eventually you will reject everyone who is not in your inner circle as a bigot. This is a problem in a democracy, especially if your opinion is a minority one, because the other side will not accept your accusations of bigotry and may even elect a strongman leader to oppose you. This will be bad. It would be so much more effective to persuade them that their arguments are wrong than to call them names. It’s also a problem on a message board if you want to have interesting discussions. If you drive everyone away with accusations of bigotry, you’ll eventually have no one left to discuss with. I think that is happening here at the straight dope. This has been fun but it was more than enough for one day. I don’t think I’ll be back again any time soon. Kevlaw out. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/293 "2021-07-25T21:21:10Z")
Another reason I would consider non-bigoted is if the person is in an area where it could be dangerous to support gay rights. I’m pretty sure that even in a country without any gay people like Iran ( 🙄), there are people who would be fine with SSM but feel like they have to espouse anti-SSM statements for the safety of themselves and their family. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/294 "2021-07-25T21:21:43Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > My original position was that if you decide, apriori, that all possible arguments for a position are bigoted then all arguments will sound bigoted and you’ll never hear opposing arguments Nobody did that. It’s just that the argument you presented happens to be a bigoted one. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/295 "2021-07-25T21:23:23Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Another reason I would consider non-bigoted is if the person is in an area where it could be dangerous to support gay rights. I’m pretty sure that even in a country without any gay people like Iran ( 🙄), there are people who would be fine with SSM but feel like they have to espouse anti-SSM statements for the safety of themselves and their family. That may be a reason to campaign against SSM, but it isn’t a reason to actually be anti-SSM. It’s just that the (bigoted) Iranian regime is forcing you, by threatening to hurt you or your family, to champion the same (bigoted) view that they do. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/296 "2021-07-25T21:32:51Z")
Good point. I concur. Someone espousing bigoted statements under fear of their own safety may not necessarily be a bigot or believe what they are espousing. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/297 "2021-07-25T21:34:30Z")
What about if the fear is real to them but cannot be objectively verified. Instead of losing their immortal soul, say they fear that God will literally strike them dead? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/298 "2021-07-25T21:46:09Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > We covered this upthread a bit perhaps you missed it. No, I saw them. Your arguments were poorly conceived and highly unconvincing. > [@kevlaw](#): > > This is a problem in a democracy, especially if your opinion is a minority one, because the other side will not accept your accusations of bigotry and may even elect a strongman leader to oppose you. This will be bad. It would be so much more effective to persuade them that their arguments are wrong than to call them names. This is literally an argument I’ve been hearing my entire adult life. “Don’t call people who vote against gay rights ‘bigots.’ It hurts their feelings and just makes it less likely that they’ll change their mind and support you.” More than twenty years, I’ve been hearing this on this very board. “It’s counter productive. You’re setting gay rights back by doing that.” Twenty years ago, gay marriage was legal nowhere in the United States. Many states had amended their constitution to specifically make it impossible to legalize gay marriage. Support for gay marriage was a minority position, with only fringe candidates in uber-liberal enclaves supporting it. Today, SSM is legal every where in the US. The President of the United States made support for gay rights, including defending our marriage rights, a central plank in his campaign. Opposition to SSM is now the minority position - only candidates in uber-conservative enclaves make a big deal about opposing it anymore. And we did that by arguing persistently and insistently that opposition to gay rights, including SSM, was a type of bigotry, no more acceptable than racial discrimination, and we kept doing it until we shifted the entire culture. > [@kevlaw](#): > > It’s also a problem on a message board if you want to have interesting discussions. If you drive everyone away with accusations of bigotry, you’ll eventually have no one left to discuss with. “If you keep this up, there won’t be any bigots left on this board for you to argue with!” isn’t quite the slam-dunk argument you think it is. I don’t participate in discussions about queer rights because they’re “interesting,” I participate because this is _literally my life_ you’re debating. The effects of banning SSM aren’t an abstract concern for me, the effects of banning SSM means _I’m not married any more._ If I never have to hear someone argue that I’m not deserving of the same rights as everyone else in this country because they have a problem with who I fuck? Frankly, that would be an absolute win for me. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/299 "2021-07-25T21:50:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Today, SSM is legal every where in the US. The President of the United States made support for gay rights, including defending our marriage rights, a central plank in his campaign. Opposition to SSM is now the minority position - only candidates in uber-conservative enclaves make a big deal about opposing it anymore. > > And we did that by arguing persistently and insistently that opposition to gay rights, including SSM, was a type of bigotry, no more acceptable than racial discrimination, and we kept doing it until we shifted the entire culture. One million percent right. And seeing you argue with bigots here on the Dope is undoubtedly one of the things that helped me get my head out of my ass when I was a teenager, so thank you. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/300 "2021-07-25T22:18:38Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > This is selective quoting and disingenuous. I said that I can’t imagine such a scenario because, as far as I know, there are no differences in intellectual capacity between ethnic groups. > > Your attempt to frame my words to imply the opposite is dishonest. The full form of what you quoted from me starts: “Suppose somebody’s position is”. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Suppose somebody’s position is: > > Members of X racial/ethnic group of humans are all (or all with very few exceptions) short on mental capacity, childlike, incapable of long-term planning, very bad at abstract thought. We should of course be kind to them and treat them well; but there’s no sense in offering them advanced education, and it would be very bad for society to let them take jobs requiring much of any independent thought. They should each be appointed guardians from a different racial/ethnic group, who can make sure that they’re fed and housed, and decide what work is suitable for the particular individual to do. > > Positing that the person who holds this position genuinely holds no animus towards the members of the group they’re so describing and making societal recommendations about: is it not still a bigoted position? Are you attempting to frame that as my accusing you of holding the position yourself? If so, you have utterly misread the post. If not, I have no idea what you’re on about. I was trying a) to explain to you why I think bigotry does not require animus and b) to find out whether you yourself think bigotry does in all cases require animus. If multiple people in a thread think your posts mean something you don’t intend to say, consider that the communications difficulty may be with your posts, not with theirs. > [@kevlaw](#): > > I just pointed out the downsides to religious folk of legal SSM. I wish you’d stop saying “religious folk” as if all religious people were of one belief in this matter. There are and have been religious people performing religious gay marriages, other religious people entering into such marriages, additional religious people happily attending such marriages, and also religious people who don’t care all that much about the matter one way or another. It’s true that there are also religious people who are opposed to all of this; but clumping all “religious folk” into one class does not work at all. > [@Miller](#): > > You can’t evade the moral responsibility for your beliefs by offloading it on to an imaginary character. Actually, you can’t even if the character’s not imaginary. If you kill your child – see Abraham – because you believe God ordered it, no matter how sincerely you believe it, and _even if it’s true_: you still killed that child. Saying you didn’t do it because you were following orders doesn’t change the fact that you did it. > [@filmore](#): > > Someone espousing bigoted statements under fear of their own safety may not necessarily be a bigot or believe what they are espousing. I will agree with that one also. They might even be members of the underground. > [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > What about if the fear is real to them but cannot be objectively verified. Instead of losing their immortal soul, say they fear that God will literally strike them dead? If one’s option is being struck dead for choosing not to harm other people, but one can get out of it by quitting a specific job, I’d recommend quitting the job. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/301 "2021-07-25T22:34:09Z")
I could _possibly_ see someone who wanted to completely abolish marriage as an institution being opposed to SSM because it’s an expansion of something they’d rather diminish. They’d be against any additional forms of marriage but not because they are same sex or multi-partner but because they don’t want more marriages to unwind when it’s abolished. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/302 "2021-07-25T23:35:32Z")
Well then what is going to make religious people lose their jobs then? Being hateful and intolerant? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222.md?page=16)