# Is there a non-bigoted reason to be anti-same-sex-marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222 "2021-07-24T20:41:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/343 "2021-07-26T18:28:37Z")
I don’t have anything against gays, but frankly speaking if some guy were to flirt with me I would think it was creepy and make me wonder what I’m doing wrong. On the other hand I feel that the two guys who did that to me are trolls of the highest caliber. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/344 "2021-07-26T18:31:32Z")
A bit off-topic, but the Aztec discussion reminded me of the books by Aliette de Bodard. They’re a triology of murder mysteries set in the Aztec empire where the “detective” is a priest. They don’t justify any of the bloodiness of the religion…it’s just accepted as given. But the books are fascinating as a look into living in that culture and how the people feel about it. The mysteries themselves were just o.k., but I really enjoyed reading them for more than the plots. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/345 "2021-07-26T18:38:08Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > I don’t have anything against gays, but frankly speaking if some guy were to flirt with me I would think it was creepy and make me wonder what I’m doing wrong. If you wouldn’t think it was creepy for a woman to flirt with you, and a woman flirting with you wouldn’t make you wonder what you were doing wrong, then you apparently do think there’s something “wrong” about being gay. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/346 "2021-07-26T18:46:11Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > I don’t have anything against gays, but frankly speaking if some guy were to flirt with me I would think it was creepy and make me wonder what I’m doing wrong. > On the other hand I feel that the two guys who did that to me are trolls of the highest caliber. Only once have I had a guy flirt with me; I was actually flattered. He was obviously a gentleman of good taste 😉 Just not something I would reciprocate! ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/347 "2021-07-26T18:56:18Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If you wouldn’t think it was creepy for a woman to flirt with you, and a woman flirting with you wouldn’t make you wonder what you were doing wrong, then you apparently do think there’s something “wrong” about being gay. I agree that, in this particular context, given the wording of “what I’m doing wrong,” it does sound like gay panic. But I want to throw out that I do think it’s possible for a person of any gender and sexual orientation to feel more threatened when a man flirts with them than when a woman does, without it being homophobic. As a straight woman, I’m always flattered and not the least bit threatened when women hit on me, even though I’m not at all interested. But when men hit on me, it’s often a very uncomfortable experience. This obviously has everything to do with the prevalence of male sexual violence and nothing to do with me being heterophobic. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/348 "2021-07-27T01:46:45Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Therefore, we shouldn’t automatically call posters who oppose SSM marriage bigots, because that just vilifies them, won’t change their minds, and turns them off from the board. And of course the wider point is that we should apply this practice not just to SSM opponents, but others who hold views we find problematic. I believe this is all a version of the “defeat bad speech with good speech” argument. > [@ShadowFacts](#): > > And honestly, I think there is some merit to this argument in general. I am concerned about increased polarization in the US (where I live) and - by extension - on this board. I think screaming “Bigot! Bigot! Bigot!” at people can be satisfying and cathartic, but it’s certainly not going to win them over to your side of the argument. (Note that I used the term “screaming” there on purpose - I have no qualms about clearly identifying bigoted or racist arguments.) That’s right. > [@ShadowFacts](#): > > That said, the way **kevlaw** has chosen to go about expressing that in this thread through this kind of pseudo-socractic “I’m not touching you” argument style has been nothing short of obnoxious and frustrating. I’d appreciate some debating tips if you are willing to share. I’m allergic to the tactic where someone says “So, what you are basically saying is…” and then makes up something that has nothing to do with what you said. Here’s what I said… > [@kevlaw](#): > > Any Catholic brought up in the church is required to believe that marriage is between and a man and a woman regardless of their attitude to their gay and lesbian friends. By definition, same-sex marriage is not possible according to Catholic teaching. Here are some attempts to rephrase or reframe my argument… > Why is the argument “our hetero marriage is divinely blessed by God but your filthy gay marriage is an abomination before the Lord” not bigoted? Note that Babale claimed that this is, I quote, “literally what you said”. > Is the argument “I was made in God’s image, while you were made in God’s image as well but then cursed with the sign of Ham and so deserve to be my slave” bigoted? > You just don’t think they should own land, or sit in your part of the bus, or drink from your drinking fountain, or marry your daughter > what you posted about gay people > Is your argument that the Catholic Church does NOT view gay marriage as an abomination? > nobody just came right out and said Gay people shouldn’t have rights, but that’s what it sounds to me like they really meant. > If you said “White men are created in God’s image” and then pretended that you weren’t saying anything about blacks or women with that statement, that would be obviously ridiculous. > This is exactly the same as saying you have a great regard and affection for Black people as long as they don’t think they don’t try to vote, so you can’t be a racist. > you are saying gay marriages are lesser than straight > marriages After the first seven or eight of these, I concluded that Babale was not interested in discussing what I had said. As soon as Babale stopped making stuff up about what I had said or believed, I engaged them in discussion. Kron too. Tell me, ShadowFacts, what’s the correct way to debate someone who makes stuff up? How would the real Socrates deal with it? ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/349 "2021-07-27T01:52:33Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > Kron too. > > Tell me, ShadowFacts, what’s the correct way to debate someone who makes stuff up? How would the real Socrates deal with it? I must say, I rather resent the implication that I made anything up; if you could show me where I did, I will certainly clarify any misunderstandings. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/350 "2021-07-27T01:57:07Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > I don’t have anything against gays, but frankly speaking if some guy were to flirt with me I would think it was creepy and make me wonder what I’m doing wrong. > On the other hand I feel that the two guys who did that to me are trolls of the highest caliber. That sounds a little anti-gay, but I’m going to assume that you didn’t mean it that way. I’d be flattered if a gay guy flirted with me. Hasn’t happened in years. (And I imagine that the few gay dudes who did flirt with me in years gone by knew perfectly well that I wasn’t gay and were just teasing me. Which is cool.) ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/351 "2021-07-27T02:04:44Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > Tell me, ShadowFacts, what’s the correct way to debate someone who makes stuff up? How would the real Socrates deal with it? I don’t believe I ever said your debate style is not “correct.” If you can show me where I did, I will happily discuss it with you. Until then, I will have to assume you did not understand what I actually said. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/352 "2021-07-27T02:11:07Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > Any Catholic brought up in the church is required to believe that marriage is between and a man and a woman regardless of their attitude to their gay and lesbian friends. By definition, same-sex marriage is not possible according to Catholic teaching. The fact that you keep repeating the claim that this statement has nothing to do with gay people is baffling, and the height of privilege. It is clearly placing heterosexual marriages above gay marriages. I still see no distinction between that, and this: > [@Babale](#): > > Why is the argument “our hetero marriage is divinely blessed by God but your filthy gay marriage is an abomination before the Lord” not bigoted? You don’t have to say the “abomination” part out loud. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/353 "2021-07-27T02:14:47Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > I don’t have anything against gays, but frankly speaking if some guy were to flirt with me I would think it was creepy and make me wonder what I’m doing wrong. > On the other hand I feel that the two guys who did that to me are trolls of the highest caliber. Have you ever flirted with a woman? If you did, were you aware of her sexual orientation at the time? If she were a lesbian, would she have the right to consider you “creepy” or a “troll of the highest caliber”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/354 "2021-07-27T02:45:21Z")
IAN furryman and cannot speak for him, but the impression I got from his post is that he was saying that he decided that the guys who flirted with them were “trolls of the highest caliber” based on some other evidence, not just the fact that they were gay guys flirting with him. That said, I agree that furryman’s general attitude towards being flirted with by a gay guy seems somewhat hostile and overly defensive. It’s no creepier for a gay guy to flirt with a man than for a straight man to flirt with a women. Creepiness, if any, is all in the circumstances and the specific behavior. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/355 "2021-07-27T07:51:58Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > I must say, I rather resent the implication that I made anything up I did not mean to imply that. If I gave impression, then I apologize. I meant to contrast the fact that engaged with your argument with the fact that I was not interested in engaging the other posters who made stuff up. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/356 "2021-07-27T07:59:22Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > I don’t believe I ever said your debate style is not “correct.” I quoted you as saying > If this is the kind of debate he wants to see on the board, count me out. I entered from that that there was a different style of debating that you preferred to see. I think that was a reasonable inference. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/357 "2021-07-27T08:05:14Z")
Magnificent. Bravo @ShadowFacts , bravo ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/358 "2021-07-27T08:07:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I still see no distinction between that, and this You are right. They are almost word for word the same. By the way, I think putting your words in a quote box with my name on it to suggest that I said them is the height of dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/359 "2021-07-27T08:39:31Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > I entered from that… I inferred from that. Autocorrect does not recognize ‘inferred’ as a word. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/360 "2021-07-27T08:59:28Z")
So what you’ve indicated, **kevlaw** , is that it’s fine for you to draw logical inferences from what others have said, but it’s not fine for others to draw logical inferences from what _you_ have said. Which ought to explain the problems people have with your debating style. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/361 "2021-07-27T09:02:30Z")
Was there a different meaning that I should have inferred? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2021, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/363 "2021-07-27T09:06:15Z")
I didn’t say anything about which meaning you should have inferred. To restate my point, from your posts in this thread you appear to consider it acceptable for you to draw logical inferences from what others have said, but not for others to draw logical inferences from what you have said. Why is that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222.md?page=19)