# Is there a non-bigoted reason to be anti-same-sex-marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222 "2021-07-24T20:41:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/41 "2021-07-25T00:15:45Z")
While I understand why people who oppose SSM (or homosexuality in general) may mean well but feel constricted by whichever religious dogma they follow, ultimately all they’re doing is outsourcing their bigotry. “I’m not a bigot - it’s _God_ who’s the bigot! If He wasn’t opposed to it, I’d be fine with it!” is an argument that rarely rings true, particularly given the long, long, _long_ history of the Bible (and other religious works) being used to justify whichever position the believer happens to want it to support. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/42 "2021-07-25T00:16:23Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > Does anybody else remember the short-lived poster Melchior? He was fond of making this semantic argument. Melchior insisted that “gay marriage” was an impossibility, like “square circle,” and words couldn’t be redefined willy-nilly. When a Doper pointed out that a majority of society had decided otherwise, he came back with “Argumentum ad populum…fallacy” (seriously, that was his entire reply). > > I strongly suspect that there was more to his position than a concern with definitions. He didn’t suggest “using a different word”—he simply dismissed the entire idea of SSM as insanity Well, _he_ may not have suggested “using a different word”, but I suggested it to him at the time: > [@](#): > > Imagine too that we create a whole new contractual agreement that’s significantly similar to marriage except it’s open to opposite-sex couples and same-sex couples. > > So it has the same age requirements as marriage. And it has the same ramifications for inheritance as marriage. It has the same effects as marriage when it comes to testifying in court – or adopting kids, or filing taxes, or making medical decisions, or getting a break on tuition – because, in all ways but one, it’s identical to marriage. > > If we give that arrangement some just-now-made-up name, would you be cool with it? And if we instead called it “marriage”, would you cry foul? > > Is that the entirety of your objection? And his reply was — _“Yes, it is the entirety of my objection.“_ ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/43 "2021-07-25T00:16:49Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > That was two non-bigoted arguments against SSM within the Catholic church. Let’s try a third and address secular same-sex marriage. That’s really just the You have to tolerate my intolerance argument. It doesn’t have a leg to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/44 "2021-07-25T00:17:50Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > I strongly suspect that there was more to his position than a concern with definitions. He didn’t suggest “using a different word”—he simply dismissed the entire idea of SSM as insanity. You may not agree with this argument but that does not make it bigoted. Side note: a billion people in the Catholic Church are required to agree with that argument. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/45 "2021-07-25T00:19:57Z")
This isn’t an answer to the OP but I would like to point out how one argument of pro-SSM people has shifted over time. 17-20 years ago, when gay marriage was opposed by the societal majority, the argument of pro-SSM folks was, _“It doesn’t matter what the majority thinks - what is morally right is morally right. After all, the majority of Southerners once opposed the abolition of slavery, etc. Majorities can be wrong.”_ But, starting a decade or so ago, when SSM began to get the majority of popular support, suddenly the tune changed. Suddenly it became, _“We need to pass gay marriage because 70% of Americans support it; it’s what the majority wants.”_ (That wasn’t the **only** reason cited in favor of SSM, of course, but it became a commonly touted one.) If someone wants to argue for XYZ reasons that SSM is good, that’s one thing. If they want to argue for XYZ reasons that SSM is bad, that’s one thing. But we can’t say majority opinion doesn’t count in one time but does in another. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/46 "2021-07-25T00:21:21Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > If we give that arrangement some just-now-made-up name, would you be cool with it? And if we instead called it “marriage”, would you cry foul? > > > > > Is that the entirety of your objection? > > And his reply was — _“Yes, it is the entirety of my objection.“_ And that, in fact, was the solution that France chose to implement until 2013. Not so ridiculous, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/47 "2021-07-25T00:21:30Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > To challenge this definition of marriage would cleave the Church in two. Would it cleave the church to ignore government ideas about marriage? I come from a religious tradition that attaches no importance to catholicity. How much of the RC attitude is due to ingrained catholicity, does it have any theological significance? I regarded the debate in Australia as primarily between the RC church members and the lapsed members, with both sides only arguing about which hierarchical structure should control marriage recognition, as if it wasn’t possible to have two independent forms. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/48 "2021-07-25T00:21:47Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > Side note: a billion people in the Catholic Church are required to agree with that argument. And yet they don’t. And yes, the argument is still bigoted, even if it came from a bigoted holy book or a bigoted god almighty, himself. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/49 "2021-07-25T00:22:48Z")
That’s one of those “cuts both ways” things; twenty years ago, the anti-SSM people were using MAJORITY RULES as a defense for their stance, and of course, when the majority opinion shifted, suddenly that didn’t matter any longer. That’s a double standard 😜. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/50 "2021-07-25T00:24:57Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > “I’m not a bigot - it’s _God_ who’s the bigot! If you are suggesting that it’s not just every catholic who is a bigot but God himself who is the bigot, I have to wonder who is being intolerant to whom. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/51 "2021-07-25T00:25:27Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > That’s one of those “cuts both ways” things; twenty years ago, the anti-SSM people were using MAJORITY RULES as a defense for their stance, and of course, when the majority opinion shifted, suddenly that didn’t matter any longer. That’s a double standard 😜. Sure, it does. It just bugs me when people latch onto or ditch things as they see fit, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/52 "2021-07-25T00:25:50Z")
No argument from me there! ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/53 "2021-07-25T00:26:44Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > > [@kevlaw](#): > > > > To challenge this definition of marriage would cleave the Church in two. > > Would it cleave the church to ignore government ideas about marriage? It would not — as long as the government did not attempt to impose government ideas about marriage on the church. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/54 "2021-07-25T00:29:59Z")
How about the government has no place in marriage and should only, at most, create civil unions? Straight and gay couples should get a civil union and if a religion also wants to grant them a marriage they are welcome to but marriage should only be a religious ceremony. If churches only want to marry straight people then no gay marriage is ok as a separation of church and state. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/55 "2021-07-25T00:32:09Z")
I suspect that most holding that view are from churches that “only want to marry straight people then no gay marriage is ok as a separation of church and state.” ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/56 "2021-07-25T00:33:02Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Except that the number of US Catholics who support same-sex marriage is about the same as the US public at large–[over 60%](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/02/how-catholics-around-the-world-see-same-sex-marriage-homosexuality/). As you know, I was making the case for opposing same-sex marriage within the Catholic Church. Your statistic was talking about civil marriage. > In Western Europe, large majorities of Catholics [said in 2017](https://www.pewforum.org/2018/05/29/being-christian-in-western-europe/) that they support **legal** same-sex marriage. > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > If GreysonCarlisle had a buddy who made a similar argument but he was also a bigot, then I fear that all is lost. > > I have no idea what you’re talking about. You attempted to counter What\_Exit’s argument with an anecdote about a buddy who a) made a similar argument and b) was a bigot. If you were not attempting to address the argument, then I have no idea why you posted it. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/57 "2021-07-25T00:34:46Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > You attempted to counter What\_Exit’s argument with an anecdote about a buddy who a) made a similar argument and b) was a bigot. If you were not attempting to address the argument, then I have no idea why you posted it. It’s none of your fucking business why I posted it. What I posted is all you need concern yourself with, friend. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/58 "2021-07-25T00:35:25Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > If you are suggesting that it’s not just every catholic who is a bigot but God himself who is the bigot, I have to wonder who is being intolerant to whom. I’m not suggesting that at all. I’m saying that anyone (of any denomination or sect) who claims that the only reason they oppose homosexuality or SSM is because God does is the one claiming that God himself is the bigot. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/59 "2021-07-25T00:41:40Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > > > Except that the number of US Catholics who support same-sex marriage is about the same as the US public at large–[over 60%](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/02/how-catholics-around-the-world-see-same-sex-marriage-homosexuality/). > > As you know, I was making the case for opposing same-sex marriage within the Catholic Church. Your statistic was talking about civil marriage. Title: How Catholics around the world see same-sex marriage, homosexuality From the article: > [@](#): > > Around the world, Catholics vary in their support for same-sex marriage and their acceptance of homosexuality in general, according to Pew Research Center surveys conducted in recent years. (The Center does not have recent survey data on views about civil unions.) So no. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222/60 "2021-07-25T00:41:49Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > Your conclusion doesn’t follow from your argument, though; nothing you laid out caused the argument to not meet the definitions for “bigot” that you opened with Please help me understand why. I posted two definitions. > a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who does not like other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life > Obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group Both require an unreasonable belief. One requires the bigot to not like other people who have different beliefs. The other requires the bigot to have prejudice or be antagonistic towards another person or group. Please point out where the arguments I described meet **any** of these criteria. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-non-bigoted-reason-to-be-anti-same-sex-marriage/947222.md?page=4)