# Is there a paradigm shift happening about science/scientists perceived role in society ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2020, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181 "2020-05-20T13:52:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/1 "2020-05-20T13:52:17Z")
About 20 or 30 years back science and scientists were perceived as the champions of humankind. It was also perceived that science would take us to the new frontiers of human accomplishments and wellbeing. Nowadays it seems like Science and the Scientific community at large has lost its respect in human society. Whether it be climate science, medicine or food science, science or scientists are perceived to have their own agenda or commercial interest and are not perceived to be working for the common man. So, do you think first of all if the above observations hold some ground ? And if so, what’s the prognosis for science’s place in society? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/2 "2020-05-20T13:56:49Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > … > Nowadays it seems like Science and the Scientific community at large has lost its respect in human society. … No, that hasn’t happened. Not in educated, well-read, rational, literate circles anyway. Just in conspiracy-theory circles. Since you didn’t cite, I won’t either when I say I claim that most people still believe in and trust science and scientists. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/3 "2020-05-20T14:02:05Z")
I don’t know, a lot of folks nowadays who think of themselves as educated, well-read, rational, and literate have been pretty busily ignoring scientists, and then congratulating themselves on how scientific they’re being. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/4 "2020-05-20T14:03:15Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > No, that hasn’t happened. Not in educated, well-read, rational, literate circles anyway… I see people from these educated circles shopping at Whole Foods all the time when science says Organic food is no better :smack: Go figure Or at farmers markets when science says local grown food is not the best for environment Or buying organic cotton when science shows it is worse for the environment Or breastfeeding babies as a lifestyle choice … ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/5 "2020-05-20T14:14:54Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > I see people from these educated circles shopping at Whole Foods all the time when science says Organic food is no better :smack: Go figure > > Or at farmers markets when science says local grown food is not the best for environment > > Or buying organic cotton when science shows it is worse for the environment > > Or breastfeeding babies as a lifestyle choice … I see that “anecdotes are not data” is a reality that is denied constantly… ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/6 "2020-05-20T14:18:32Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > No, that hasn’t happened. Not in educated, well-read, rational, literate circles anyway. I agree. There has always been suspicion and even anti-science feelings out there. It’s just that, with modern technology, those people can be a lot louder and reach a lot more people with their rants. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/7 "2020-05-20T14:31:16Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I see that “anecdotes are not data” is a reality that is denied constantly… Instead of that snark, you could have easily asked me for data. Here is the data anyways : The Sum of Small Things: A Theory of the Aspirational Class Book by Elizabeth Currid-Halkett > [@](#): > > In today’s world, the leisure class has been replaced by a new elite. \*\*Highly educated **and defined by cultural capital rather than income bracket, these individuals earnestly buy \*\* organic** , carry canvas tote bags, and breast-feed their babies… Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/8 "2020-05-20T14:38:07Z")
What a coincidence. I, too, judge the education and intelligence of people based on the material their tote bags are made of. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/9 "2020-05-20T14:42:49Z")
Well, this discussion is going nowhere fast. To the OP: no one is taking your question seriously. Oops. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/10 "2020-05-20T14:46:14Z")
Books are not data either **am77494**. What I usually see are would be researchers that do realize that instead of doing science and confronting peer review, they would rather write a book to distribute their **opinions**. As for paradigm shifts, following the same behavior like Marat before the French revolution did not do wonders to France, if it takes place in America all the people will be affected (that also includes the ones that do think that disparaging science or the scientists is a good thing to do) In reality the bit of ‘having their own agenda or commercial interests and are not perceived to be working for the common man.’ is/was a propaganda point from people like Marat who did succeed into needlessly discrediting real scientists like Lavoisier. It did not end good. > **[Death of Lavoisier](https://engines.egr.uh.edu/episode/728)** > > Today, we destroy suddenly what we've built slowly. The University of Houston's College of Engineering presents this series about the machines that make our civilization run, and the people whose ingenuity created them. In an odd essay, Stephen Jay... > [@](#): > > He belonged to the Academy of Science. When Jean-Paul Marat tried to become a member, Lavoisier pointed out that his writings were empty. Marat was furious. As the Reign of Terror heated up, he used the Revolution to attack Lavoisier. > > Marat had done his damage before Charlotte Corday stabbed him to death in his bath. The Revolution finally arrested Lavoisier and sent him to the guillotine. > > Before the arrest, Lavoisier wrote to his friend Ben Franklin. He wished Franklin’s level head were around to cool things down. From prison he wrote to his cousin. These events would at least save him the troubles of old age. > > The mathematician LaGrange lamented the beheading. He said, > > > [@](#): > > > > It took them only an instant to cut off that head,but France may not produce another like it in a century. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/11 "2020-05-20T14:48:59Z")
Some people like to conflate different disciplines together as science. Some disciplines like physics are well understood and rigorous outside the bleeding edge, other disciplines like social psychology are full of charlatans, and unfounded claims. Lumping them together as science does a disservice to the actual sciences. Some times this is done for political reasons, acting like not believing a particular climate model is akin to disbelieving gravity. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/12 "2020-05-20T14:52:29Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Well, this discussion is going nowhere fast. To the OP: no one is taking your question seriously. Oops. This is borderline threadcrapping and personal insult rolled into one. Respectfully Mam, may I know the reason for this hostility ? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/13 "2020-05-20T14:53:24Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Well, this discussion is going nowhere fast. To the OP: no one is taking your question seriously. Oops. I’ll give it a shot. Carl Sagan spoke about the topic of science becoming less and less understood, even scorned by the general population and government. He wrote about it in the Demon Hunted World and this is his last[interview with Charlie Rose](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8HEwO-2L4w) (May, 1996) where he speaks about this topic very eloquently. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/14 "2020-05-20T14:54:01Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Well, this discussion is going nowhere fast. To the OP: no one is taking your question seriously. Oops. I am surprised to hear that. Today we have the “University of Google” so people can believe they “know more” than scientists. There’s also “WhatsApp University” (my mother is a graduate), “Facebook U”, “Twitter College”, and the like. A vaccine and autism “expert” (and porn star) said she relied on the University of Google rather than scientific reports to support her beliefs. > [@](#): > > In a 2016 survey by the National Science Foundation, more respondents expressed “a great deal” of confidence in science leaders than in leaders of any other institution except the military. On public policy issues, Americans believe that science leaders are more knowledgeable and impartial than leaders in other sectors of society, such as business or government. Why do people say that they trust scientists in general but part company with them on specific issues? Link: [Trust Me, I'm a Scientist | Scientific American](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trust-me-im-a-scientist/) In Canada, a sizeable minority (44%) consider scientists to be “elites”, which is a social dynamic. > [@](#): > > The Canadian figures are from a global survey of more than 14,000 people between July and September 2018. It’s the second year 3M has done the research. > > At a time when accelerating climate change and wildlife loss are placing science at the top of the public agenda, the survey found 32 per cent of respondents were skeptical about it. That was up from 25 per cent the previous year. > > “It moved from one person out of four to one person out of three,” Chartrand said. “It’s difficult for us to understand why.” It’s getting worse. Link: [Canadians' trust in science falling, poll suggests | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/science-survey-1.5291291) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/15 "2020-05-20T14:54:32Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Some people like to conflate different disciplines together as science. Some disciplines like physics are well understood and rigorous outside the bleeding edge, other disciplines like social psychology are full of charlatans, and unfounded claims. Lumping them together as science does a disservice to the actual sciences. Some times this is done for political reasons, acting like not believing a particular climate model is akin to disbelieving gravity. Well since climate science as been going on for more that 100 years, it is clear that they do not look at one model only. In fact, as the whole lame discussion about the medieval warming period showed, it has been climate change deniers the ones who still insist to this day that an early (and very limited) model based on a local British recreation of past climate was the beesnees and it should be used as gospel. Real scientists are not doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/16 "2020-05-20T15:07:23Z")
Follow the money, guys. Bad science is a hugely profitable business. Do you need a study that says your product doesn’t cause cancer? That the cleaning solution your company makes doesn’t linger in the environment? Are you a politician that wants to repeal some environmental legislation but you a study to back up your position? You can buy that. There’s a company called Exponent that specializes in product defense and they’ll find a “scientist” to promote pretty much any point of view that you want. Our maybe you need some doctors to say that abortions cause cancer or to claim that Hydroxychloroquine cures COVID. Look no further than the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons, a group of professionals whose mission is to co-opt medicine to the service of political conservatism. It’s a deliberate tactic intended to manufacture doubt and controversy where it’s shouldn’t exist. The average citizen doesn’t understand that in this climate the opinion of one doctor or scientist or even a group of doctors and scientists is meaningless. The only thing that should count is broad and widespread consensus. But that goes against our love for innovation and thinking outside the box as well as our desire to have our biases confirmed. So we will continue to be subjected to “science” that is little more than propaganda. It’s a pervasive problem that’s getting worse and it’s compounded by a general lack of understanding about scientific methodology. I’ve been watching it play out for weeks now. I’ve been watching a mostly useless drug gain traction with the public as a miracle cure. And it’s not harmless. The real harm doesn’t lie in the possible side effects of the drug (although those exist). The harm - and the ulterior motive behind the promotion IMHO- is that it is an effort to convince people that they are immune from a dangerous disease, for reasons that are largely political. It’s not just “stupid people ignoring science”. It’s way worse than that. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/17 "2020-05-20T15:30:59Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > About 20 or 30 years back science and scientists were perceived as the champions of humankind. It was also perceived that science would take us to the new frontiers of human accomplishments and wellbeing. I’m old enough to remember attitudes from 20-30 years ago, and there were as many anti-science people then as now. And at that time people imagined a mythical type 20-30 years prior to that (that I am _not_ old enough to remember) when science and scientists were well-respected. Society has always treated science like Mr. Spock. They want him there, but they definitely want Captain Kirk to be the one in charge. Balls and glory on top, with science and reason clearly subordinate. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/18 "2020-05-20T15:31:15Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > It’s not just “stupid people ignoring science”. It’s way worse than that. Very true, I’m afraid. Conservative politicians have noticed that actual science and facts are getting in the way of their political goals. There is a very deliberate and organized plan to discredit science underway. Muzzling science is a thing that is happening. And it’s being done in order to stop reality from getting in the way of a political agenda. Don’t like statistics about how your hobby or business kills people? Forbid any research into it. Simple. Want to promote a miracle cure so you can sell snake oil? Fire any researchers whose data shows it to be ineffective. I mean, they were standing in the way of profit, which is un-American. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/19 "2020-05-20T15:34:00Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Follow the money, guys. Bad science is a hugely profitable business. While I do agree, the issue here is about science/scientists being not trusted or doing no good things for society. You are correct about the abuses of people in power finding “McExperts” to support dubious claims, but that actually shows that most people are not following a shift, as in 'we are not trusting right away what any guy in a lab coat on TV or the internet is telling us". People on the whole do still perceive science as a good thing to have (even if it can be twisted from time to time by economic interests). BTW, to the OP: this is what data looks like: > **[Key findings about Americans’ confidence in science and their views on...](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/02/12/key-findings-about-americans-confidence-in-science-and-their-views-on-scientists-role-in-society/)** > > Here is a roundup of key takeaways from our studies of U.S. public opinion about science issues and their effect on society. > [@](#): > > Most in the U.S. see net benefits from science for society, and they expect more ahead. About three-quarters of Americans (73%) say science has, on balance, had a mostly positive effect on society. And 82% expect future scientific developments to yield benefits for society in years to come. > > The overall portrait is one of strong public support for the benefits of science to society, though the degree to which Americans embrace this idea differs sizably by race and ethnicity as well as by levels of science knowledge. > > Such findings are in line with those of the General Social Survey on the effects of scientific research. In 2018, about three-quarters of Americans (74%) said the benefits of scientific research outweigh any harmful results. Support for scientific research by this measure has been roughly stable since the 1980s And that is even when most of the same surveyed people reported to be skeptical when it is shown that a researcher has conflicts of interest on a subject. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181/20 "2020-05-20T15:44:45Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Conservative politicians have noticed that actual science and facts are getting in the way of their political goals. > > There is a very deliberate and organized plan to discredit science underway. Yup. Facilitated by the universal and natural human desire to be able to feel smart without working for it. If some scientist is spouting off equations and graphs about some complicated technical stuff that you don’t understand, and you happen to “know” that the scientist is “just trying to promote some political agenda”, then voila, you “know” all you need to know about that complicated technical stuff without having to do the work of actually learning anything about it. Very gratifying. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-paradigm-shift-happening-about-science-scientists-perceived-role-in-society/854181.md?page=2)