# Is there a place for non-politically correct speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 16, 2018, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218 "2018-12-16T06:28:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/81 "2018-12-17T05:01:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > PC is an early form of Orwellian thought control. Do you really love thinking about racist, sexist, hurtful things soooooo much? Are you that resistant to change that you would forgo a world wide better tomorrow just because someone might mention that your choice of words or phrases are outdated? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/82 "2018-12-17T05:24:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You have to learn to live with the fact that the world changes. And when the changes are positive ones, it’s called progress. > > I remember seeing _Crocodile Dundee_ in the theater. [This scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6fgPX3NjyA) wasn’t controversial at the time; most people just thought it was a funny joke. > > But you watch it now and you see a room full of people, led by the hero of the movie, laughing at a transgendered woman who got caught when she “pretended” to be a woman. > > I laughed at that joke in 1986 and I see it as offensive in 2018. Attitudes change. I can sympathize with somebody who fell into a coma in 1986 and woke up in 2018 and is now being told that his views about transgendered people are offensive. But no excuses for anyone who was awake during those thirty years. You had plenty of time to adjust. There’s a huge difference between something like that and being held accountable because you haven’t gone out of your way to keep up with everybody’s preferred pet term for themselves. That’s the issue that people have- it entirely revolves around someone else’s opinions at the moment- they may want to be called “disabled” one month and “differently abled” another. There ought to be standardized, agreed-upon terms- having some people say “black” is fine, and others get torqued about not being called “african american” is absurd- how are you supposed to know? And really, as long as you’re not actually using a slur, that seems to be their problem, not yours. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I don’t have the time or the inclination to worry about whether I’m using the exact proper term that every single person wants to be called. I will not call anyone by racial slurs or derogatory names for disabilities, etc… but neither am I going to sweat whether one person is an asian, another is an asian american and a third wants something else. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/83 "2018-12-17T05:30:35Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Do you really love thinking about racist, sexist, hurtful things soooooo much? Are you that resistant to change that you would forgo a world wide better tomorrow just because someone might mention that your choice of words or phrases are outdated? I’d rather live in a society that supports freedom to offend than a society that exploits emotion in order to enact controls over language, expression, and ultimately thought. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/84 "2018-12-17T05:31:36Z")
> [@lingyi](#): > > Part of it is based on what I learned in a Plantation history course and another part is my knowledge of our local (ethnically mixed) culture and pidgin English language which is is mix of all the different languages of the immigrants, allowing them to communicate with each other. > > Despite being separated into camps (Japanese/Okinawan, Filipino, Korean, etc), they worked together in the fields and picked up on terms used by the the other groups during their daily conversations, often changed for easier pronunciation. The ability to communicate (somewhat) effectively broke down cultural barriers and opened the door for inter-racial, inter-cultural (though still frowned upon back then) relationships. Hawaii has a unique history and culture. Because of the limits of traveling in and out of the area, the whites were outnumbered by people of color very early in their history. That didn’t allow them to dominate as long. Although there are still imbalances of power because of land grants, the sale of land wasn’t restricted as it was in other parts of the country based on color. Obama grew up in Hawaii. It’s one of the reasons he didn’t seem to appreciate the cultural divide that led to these culture wars. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Applying the same PC standard from the rest of the country to Hawaii may not apply, but it doesn’t go the other way around either. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/85 "2018-12-17T05:33:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’d rather live in a society that supports freedom to offend than a society that exploits emotion in order to enact controls over language, expression, and ultimately thought. But you ARE free to offend. So what’s the problem? Edit: if you are free to offend, then why aren’t others free to say they are offended? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/86 "2018-12-17T05:38:57Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > But you ARE free to offend. So what’s the problem? I am. Because I don’t need to attend college and be subjected to illegal speech codes. Nor do I need to work if I choose not to. But if one is a student or employed and without substantial savings a wrong word can lead to all sorts of long lasting ‘consequences.’ It’s going to be funny when people start digging up tweets and other social media of teens and using that against them when they hit adulthood. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/87 "2018-12-17T05:47:29Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > You don’t even begin to understand the reasoning behind this language construction. What this is, is “person first” language. “Colored person” makes “color” the most important part of the description, while “person of color” says the person is the most important part, followed by another descriptive word. Like “person who uses a wheelchair,” rather than “disabled person.” > > Using person first language is respectful because it emphasizes that being a person is the most important thing. Conversely, I use “rich people” intentionally because the defining characteristic of those people, to me, is the fact that they have way too much money and I am making it quite clear that whatever ELSE they are is of much less interest or importance than the fact that they are resource hogs. But it’s the **liberals** who insist on making skin color the most important thing. You could have a group of 100 people representing several different countries, professions, ages, life experiences, etc. – but if they were all Caucasian, liberals would insist with extreme vehemence that it was not a “diverse” group. Charlize Theron is, quite literally, an African-American: but liberals say that it’s un-PC to call her that, simply and solely because of her skin color. ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/88 "2018-12-17T06:17:22Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > Hawaii has a unique history and culture. Because of the limits of traveling in and out of the area, the whites were outnumbered by people of color very early in their history. That didn’t allow them to dominate as long. Although there are still imbalances of power because of land grants, the sale of land wasn’t restricted as it was in other parts of the country based on color. > > Obama grew up in Hawaii. It’s one of the reasons he didn’t seem to appreciate the cultural divide that led to these culture wars. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. > > Applying the same PC standard from the rest of the country to Hawaii may not apply, but it doesn’t go the other way around either. Thank you for your comment. Looking back on all that I’ve written, I’ve forgotten that Hawaii has a unique culture that indeed can’t and shouldn’t be forced on anyone. My OP was to be an example of how what may be considered non-PC speech actually helped develop our local culture. By the same token, I fear that in this age of sometimes (IMHO) over reaching PC, the standards of the mainland U.S. and other Western countries, may cause our unique culture (including the, to non-local non-PC nicknames we use) to may disappear to ensure that no one is possibly offended. As an aside, I just listened to _Mr. San Cho Lee_ [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS2YLvGGtwY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS2YLvGGtwY) which is a beloved local song by The Beamer Brothers that satirizes some ethnic stereotypes, but ends with lyrics that truly captures our local culture and our captive environment: “One thing, I wen notice about dis place All us guys, we tease da other race It’s amazing, we can live in da same place” I was pleased with most of the comments that praised the sentiment of the song, but was disappointed to see one recent commenter say that one of the oldest local radio stations (KPOI) won’t play the song anymore . _SIGH_ ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/89 "2018-12-17T06:50:12Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > It’s not a synonym for politeness; the terms have significantly different meanings. Politeness is much more power neutral. > > That’s not to say PC is inherently bad, it just that location of one’s position and power will have an effect on the interpretation. This is a very good point. Where _do_ we draw that line between “politeness” and “PC”? Well, “politeness” implies a sort of default state of being; if what you’re doing is “merely politeness rather than PC”, the inherent implication is that it’s uncontroversial, that you’re coming at it from the moral high ground, that in polite society, there won’t be any disagreement. Whereas “PC” comes from the opposite direction - it’s the rules of “politeness” applied to groups which, traditionally, didn’t _get_ politeness. Y’know - people of color, transgender people, women, gay people, et cetera. Note that the “political correctness gone mad” narrative is generally applied when it comes to not mistreating minority groups, but is almost never applied when it comes to not mistreating the mainstream. When it comes to giving unjustified deference to Christian beliefs and practices, it’s not “PC gone mad”, it’s “just being polite”. The power in “PC” is explicit because it has to be. The power in “politeness” is implicit because it’s allowed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/90 "2018-12-17T06:53:47Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I understand we need dialogue and the opportunity to disagree with someone. > > It’s the pack mentality that bothers me. That a public figure says something and there’s a national out cry of indignation. > > Social media has created unique problems and I’m not sure what can be done. People should discuss what they hear people say. How can we avoid that turning into mob rule? The loudest and most shrill voices get their way? > > I don’t have the answers. Given that “PC” is _intentionally_ such a broad and vague concept as to be virtually meaningless as anything other than a snarl word, would you mind explaining what you actually mean? Like, giving some examples of this? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/91 "2018-12-17T10:22:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I am. Because I don’t need to attend college and be subjected to illegal speech codes. Nor do I need to work if I choose not to. But if one is a student or employed and without substantial savings a wrong word can lead to all sorts of long lasting ‘consequences.’ (I’m going to discount university speech codes for the moment because I have several problems with the ways universities prosecute speech and sexual assault and may well agree with you on that.) With regards to the work thing: um… That’s just _society_, dude. Regardless of how “anti-PC” your workplace may be, if you start talking about how your boss is a “stupid motherfucker” while your boss is in earshot, you will shortly be out of a job. Would you want someone working for you who not only thinks you’re a stupid motherfucker, but is willing to say so out loud to other coworkers? So correct me if I’m wrong, but your problem seems to be less with “you can get fired for saying the wrong thing” and more with “you can get fired for saying the wrong thing, and ‘the wrong thing’ has changed in recent years”. In which case I’d wonder how it’s changed precisely, and what your problem is with that. Because simply saying “PC” doesn’t actually tell me _anything_. It’s so vague and broad as to be utterly meaningless. But it’s my experience that when we move away from the stupid intentionally vague snarl word and towards concrete examples, the whole argument stops making a lick of sense. > [@](#): > > It’s going to be funny when people start digging up tweets and other social media of teens and using that against them when they hit adulthood. Do you remember Justine Sacco? Y’know, that advertising exec who made headlines a while back because she was fired for a startlingly tone-deaf tweet about white people and AIDS before her trip to South Africa? Turns out, she found a new job with similar pay within a month of being fired, and is now back working for the company that originally fired her. She’s still very firmly wealthy. I think, for the most part, “young people” are going to be just fine. Because, as it turns out, most people understand the context that teenagers are, well, dumb, immature kids, and that even when they aren’t, people can change their perspectives and apologies can and do matter. The only people who don’t are typically those with an axe to grind, like the alt-right fuckheads who got James Gunn fired. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/92 "2018-12-17T12:20:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If my employer were to see me, should they not have the right to fire me, especially if I’m front-facing employee and there are regular customers in the crowd? I think you’re looking at it from the wrong angle: you should be free to say anything, but you shoulder the responsibility for the repercussions of what you say. So just as you are free to speak, so the crowd are free to boo you, your employer is free to fire you, and so on. (As an aside, this led to the development of the secret ballot in the UK, and also the pamphleteers who ended up inciting the American revolution.) Freedom carries responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/93 "2018-12-17T12:40:07Z")
The anti-PC, no-consequences-for-speech crowd only want their opinions validated and affirmed. They don’t want to hear dissenting opinions or face the natural consequences of their speech. They welcome all the opportunities that might result from their speech. But if their speech were to cause them to lose opportunities? They become whiny tittybabies over that. They only want the benefits of free speech but none of the responsibilities. This is an indefensible position, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/94 "2018-12-17T12:44:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I think you’re looking at it from the wrong angle: you should be free to say anything, but you shoulder the responsibility for the repercussions of what you say. So just as you are free to speak, so the crowd are free to boo you, your employer is free to fire you, and so on. (As an aside, this led to the development of the secret ballot in the UK, and also the pamphleteers who ended up inciting the American revolution.) Freedom carries responsibility. Maybe you should have a chat with octopus, then. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/95 "2018-12-17T14:10:29Z")
I was born in the '60s. In the '70s, said all kinds of racist stuff, mostly not knowing any better – our chant when a fight broke out at school was terrible. I used to call Asians “Orientals”. I didn’t know the actual history of the Confederate “rebel” movement, the how the Confederate flag made its comeback during the Civil Rights Era, and so on. I’m sure I was homo- and trans-phobic, if the topic came up, but it didn’t come up much. You know what? I learned and adapted, and I’m practically never in trouble with the PC Police, whoever the fuck they are. If I do say something tone deaf or offensive, I apologize, learn my lesson, and move on. What’s the big fucking deal? Why would I want to be purposely offensive to someone? I don’t complain about “woe is me, language is moving on and I have to change what I say”, except when it comes to grammar and usage (you don’t mean literally, dammit! :D). Language changes all the time. Even in the sixties, “negress” was obviously wrong and stilted, because Star Trek used the word to show how out of touch Abe Lincoln was. What does Lincoln do in that episode? He apologizes and moves on. I have two kids in college and neither is concerned about what they say. Of course, I tried to bring up my kids so that they don’t go out of their way to offend people. Neither one has those ridiculous stories that show up to make right-wingers angry about safe spaces. Once in a while, there’s an incident at some school – there are thousands of schools where none of that is happening. So, grow the fuck up and accept the consequences if you offend someone. Those consequences can be as simple as apologizing, or, if you want to be a jerk, maybe you’ll lose your friend group. If you decide to really dig in, maybe you’ll lose your job. You’re not going to lose your job if you utter some word that went out of fashion last week, but if you decide to refer to black people as negroes and Asians as Orientals or Chinamen or something, you might be in trouble, especially if you don’t correct yourself after being shown the error of your ridiculous ways. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/96 "2018-12-17T14:17:00Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > So, grow the fuck up and accept the consequences if you offend someone. This. As many, many, many, people have already pointed out, this gibberish about being “PC” is caused by assholes who don’t want to take responsibility for controlling their own behavior. People who complain about “political correctness” just mean they want to be hateful and insulting without being criticized for their behavior. They blame the victim for being offended, rather than accept that they were wrong for being assholes in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/97 "2018-12-17T14:41:01Z")
I think my favorite is that the network that has the most bullshit PC Police stories also has their annual War On Christmas bullshit. “I can’t believe I’m not allowed to call her a \ to her face…and, how dare they say Happy Holidays to me instead of Merry Christmas.” Parody is dead. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/98 "2018-12-17T14:55:10Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I think my favorite is that the network that has the most bullshit PC Police stories also has their annual War On Christmas bullshit. “I can’t believe I’m not allowed to call her a \ to her face…and, how dare they say Happy Holidays to me instead of Merry Christmas.” Parody is dead. Exactly. They freak out if you don’t say certain magic words correctly, but Og forbid that they can’t call someone colored. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/99 "2018-12-17T14:55:24Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > people should be free to express themselves however they want. Free speech should be protected in all areas of life. That includes at work, school, on television or any place else. > > People should be able to express themselves without fear of public reprisal. The internet and social media is a powerful weapon that’s harmed too many people. > [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m not convinced kneeling during the anthem is the way to do it. He’s on the clock and is expected to do his job and represent the NFL. These two statements from the same poster are just awesome. Really cuts to the chase of “PC is out of control! People should be able to say what they want. Unless I disagree, then they should shut up!” :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218/100 "2018-12-17T15:00:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No. There is no such place, becuase every possible group of people has rules - spoken and unspoken - regarding what can and cannot be said. Take me to the freest, least resticted forum in the world, and sooner or later I’ll think of something to say that’ll piss _everyone_ off. Seconded, agree, and everything else. In general terms Yuku sites had some seriously free-wheeling boards depending on the actual owner/manager. They also had some classic flame-outs where entire boards folded basically over one thread/post where someone pushed the limits and the buttons of the Vast Majority. They were fun reads but a good illustration of the above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-place-for-non-politically-correct-speech/826218.md?page=6)