# Is there a racial disparity in police shootings in America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2020, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150 "2020-06-06T12:25:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/41 "2020-06-10T03:47:02Z")
As an outsider looking in, it always seems that there’s a fundamental problem with American policing. Not entirely relevant, however we recently had a trial here with arming our police. It was ended with the decision being that day to day policing should be unarmed. In my mind the money quote is "“It is clear to me that these response teams do not align with the style of policing that New Zealanders expect,” What style of policing do Americans expect? And what feeds into that? ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/42 "2020-06-10T04:31:17Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Why does the black community (Black Lives Matter) hold up to be martyred , a criminal? Are there no other black people in recent history that deserve the protection that could be used as the face of this change? Floyd isn’t the example being held up - the example being cited is the circumstances that caused his death, right there on the video, and the focus is on the institutions that support those actions. Floyd’s life is the distraction being used to justify or mitigate those actions. Like all the other victims. You talk like there haven’t been plenty of clear-cut examples in recent history. Botham Jean. Breonna Taylor. Atatania Jefferson. Killed in their own homes by police claiming to defend _themselves_ after making dumb mistakes. The weeks-long cover-up in Georgia of Ahmaud Arbery’s killing by a former LEO, for the crime of fleeing gun-toting strangers who’d decided he didn’t belong in their neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/43 "2020-06-10T09:00:09Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Do we even know whether black men are more likely than white men to commit violent crimes, as opposed to being more likely to be arrested, prosecuted, and/or convicted of violent crimes? There is research-verified discrimination at every stage of the “justice” process: patrolling, arrests, prosecutions, plea bargains, convictions, sentencing, paroles. And then this oppression does increase black crime rates, in a never-ending vicious cycle. For every black shot by police, there are hundreds of thousands of anti-black incidents. Blacks are frequently harassed just for being in the neighborhood where they own their own home. Or for just driving a car. Resentment builds up and builds up and finally explodes when an incident like the murder of George Floyd occurs. To focus on some particular factoid about a specific incident like Floyd’s murder and claim that black resentment is unjustified is to Miss.The.Big.Picture. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t think you can isolate out shootings of unarmed people from the bigger picture of police misconduct and distrust. Reform the police, and you can absolutely expect a reduction in the homicide rate for black men, and those in any other communities who don’t feel like they can get a fair shake from the police, and thus must handle their disputes themselves. Read up on the concepts of cultures of law vs cultures of honor; any people anywhere excluded from fair law enforcement can be expected to have higher rates of violence. > [@Lantern](#): > > For 2019 the Wapo database says around 77% were with gun or knife. But yes they aren’t always using the weapon, sometimes they are just holding it. They may not even have been holding it. One black driver was shot dead just for telling cops that he had a legal weapon in his glove compartment. Guess how that killing was reported by cops. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/44 "2020-06-10T10:56:04Z")
Slightly off-topic perhaps, but [this report by John Oliver](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY) may help fight ignorance in this thread. (Does the police-training shown at the 11:45 mark also curdle your blood?) ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/45 "2020-06-10T13:11:49Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > All the coverage I’ve seen is focused on his murder, and the ensuing protests. This is because those are the salient points. Notably, neither one has anything to do with Floyd’s past. Are you seeing media coverage claiming Floyd never committed a crime in his life? If so, where? > > Do you have any interest in addressing the root causes of these problems, which are many and varied? If equality of opportunity is what you actually want, that’s where it starts. Fair and just policing - which includes not preying on the black community disproportionately to drum up fines and arrests - is just one piece of the puzzle, but it’s an important one. I’d also urge you to research the War on Drugs and its grossly disproportionate impact on black communities, and the Ferguson report for how a police force can in effect manufacture crimes to generate revenue. No one disputes ANY of that. But WHY does the war on drugs disproportionately affect the black community? Could it possibly be because there are more drug dealers and drug related offenses in the black community? Don’t dispute getting law enforcement out of collecting monies for fines either, AT ALL. Now that we agree on the equality parts, let’s figure out how to make the black community more law abiding so as to bring them in line with the rest of the country. Racist policies and people need to be addressed, they need to be fired, and they need to be prosecuted. WE AGREE. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/46 "2020-06-10T13:13:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > George Floyd made mistakes in the past, but he was held accountable for those mistakes and served his time. Everyone that knew him says he had turned his life around and that he was living a law-abiding life. [He even recorded a video encouraging young people to not resort to gun violence.](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8364165/Heartbreaking-video-emerges-George-Floyd-46-encouraging-young-people-gun-violence.html) > > It is sickening that people want to drag up his past to justify his murder. NO ONE, not one single person is justifying his death. Not A Single person. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/47 "2020-06-10T13:15:49Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I am pretty skeptical that this is sufficient. I’m sure that weakening police unions will have some positive effect on police brutality, and I’m in favor of doing so, but the idea that it’s the lynchpin or keystone that’s protecting police is far-fetched, and I think seized upon by people who are already inclined to weaken unions in general. > > 1. If you look at other organizations that exerted power through the use of violence and protected their own by a code of omertà, they were not primarily protected by unions. > > 2. In my opinion, the primary problem with bad cops is not that they aren’t _fired_ for assault and murder, it’s that they aren’t _prosecuted and convicted_. > > 3. No other union asks for or receives the sorts of immunity from prosecution that police unions routinely do. > > Police unions ask for absurd immunity from prosecution and politicians deliver it because the culture and politics of policing are fundamentally corrupt. > > The data are fundamentally bullshit for reasons that have been pointed out by several in this thread. Black crime is detected and punished at much higher rates because they’re constantly hassled by the police, and black communities have to resort to extra-judicial conflict resolution because the police are not neutral, fair, or trusted. I got it, science is science when it proves what I want it to show, but its fundamentally bullshit when it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/48 "2020-06-10T13:18:28Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Now that we agree on the equality parts, let’s figure out how to make the black community more law abiding so as to bring them in line with the rest of the country. I don’t necessarily accept this premise, but supposing I did, why would this matter? Through American history, black people were treated like shit, regardless of their actual behavior. Why are you so convinced that now is so magical and special that black people are suddenly treated fairly, and any difference in statistics is only because of their own misbehavior, when for the entirety of our history they were treated so incredibly unfairly no matter what they did? What’s so magical and special about now? The Ferguson report (once again, have you read it?) strongly indicates that black people were treated like shit even when they were _less likely_ to be violating the law than white people. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/49 "2020-06-10T13:20:58Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > No one disputes ANY of that. But WHY does the war on drugs disproportionately affect the black community? > > Could it possibly be because there are more drug dealers and drug related offenses in the black community? > … Here’s a cite that says drug use is more prevalent among whites: > **[Race/Ethnicity and Gender Differences in Drug Use and Abuse Among College...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2377408/)** > > This study examines race/ethnicity and gender differences in drug use and abuse for substances other than alcohol among undergraduate college students. A probability-based sample of 4,580 undergraduate students at a Midwestern research university... I would copy it here, but it’s in table form and they look terrible. So, the answer to you question is, there are more drug related offenses in the black community because that’s where cops look for them. In reality, there’s more illegal drug usage in the white community. Any comment? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/50 "2020-06-10T13:23:37Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I got it, science is science when it proves what I want it to show, but its fundamentally bullshit when it doesn’t. The science says that when a community cannot rely on a neutral arbiter for justice and violence, then they take those responsibilities into their own hands. Those kinds of communities are more violent. You should read “The Better Angels of Our Nature” by Steven Pinker. Black people know that calling the police may result in unnecessary death, arrest, jail time, for innocent people, so they take matters into their own hands. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/51 "2020-06-10T13:25:57Z")
Not to mention that cops focus on black communities more than other communities, so it shouldn’t be a huge surprise that they find more crime in the places they spend the most time looking. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/52 "2020-06-10T13:32:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Poor people are more likely to commit crimes. Due to centuries of racial injustice, minorities (Blacks and Hispanics) are more often poor. They also often live in Ghettoes, and there arent many ways out of a ghetto. > > Certainly there could be some racial injustice in the fact the blacks commit disproportionately more crimes, but it is primarily the income issue. I absolutely agree with this. It is an income issue that results in a higher crime rate amongst certain areas and certain populations. Hispanic populations do not have the same crime rate as the black communities though, even allowing for the income distributions. That would lead me to think that the black communities also have other traits lending itself to a higher crime rate. I have some wild ass guesses but nothing that can be proven with the data. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/53 "2020-06-10T13:40:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not to mention that cops focus on black communities more than other communities, so it shouldn’t be a huge surprise that they find more crime in the places they spend the most time looking. This is where, to me, it gets murky. Do the cops spend more time there because that is where most of the calls, crime originate from, OR do they spend time there looking? This where the bias (that doesn’t need to be racial in origin) kicks in. If you know that black people are more proportionally criminals do you focus on them as a group or do you ignore the data and provide everyone with the same chance? I think most folks find it hard to ignore the data but it should definitely be pushed. And especially in the cases of racially motivated police work, that shit needs to be stamped out. That blue wall you mentioned should not and likely would not exist if there was no Union… ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/54 "2020-06-10T13:53:30Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > Floyd isn’t the example being held up - the example being cited is the circumstances that caused his death, right there on the video, and the focus is on the institutions that support those actions. Floyd’s life is the distraction being used to justify or mitigate those actions. Like all the other victims. You talk like there haven’t been plenty of clear-cut examples in recent history. Botham Jean. Breonna Taylor. Atatania Jefferson. Killed in their own homes by police claiming to defend _themselves_ after making dumb mistakes. The weeks-long cover-up in Georgia of Ahmaud Arbery’s killing by a former LEO, for the crime of fleeing gun-toting strangers who’d decided he didn’t belong in their neighborhood. He’s not? Golden casket, coverage of the funeral(s) on most major networks? He’s being help up as a martyr. Is he an example? Most certainly, maybe even a positive one if he really did turn his life around … Which is hard to believe since his autopsy found drugs in his system and he was committing a crime when detained. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/55 "2020-06-10T13:55:02Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > … So, the answer to you question is, there are more drug related offenses in the black community because that’s where cops look for them. In reality, there’s more illegal drug usage in the white community. As a further example of this, recall the huge disparities that once existed in the enforcement of, and sentencing for, powder cocaine vs crack cocaine. The former was a drug of choice among affluent whites (who might have been snorting at parties with police commissioners!) while the latter was smoked by blacks. 5 grams of crack yielded a mandatory minimum 5 years in prison while it took 500 grams of powder cocaine — essentially the same drug — to get that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/56 "2020-06-10T13:56:49Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > He’s not? > > Golden casket, coverage of the funeral(s) on most major networks? > He’s being help up as a martyr. > > Is he an example? Most certainly, maybe even a positive one if he really did turn his life around … > > Which is hard to believe since his autopsy found drugs in his system and he was committing a crime when detained. Allegedly… and this allegation (of an almost trivial and entirely non-violent crime) requires us to trust a corrupt institution and corrupt individuals. Why are you so intent on slandering a dead man that you’d take their word for it? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/57 "2020-06-10T14:01:59Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > UNCONDITIONALLY George Floyd did not deserve to die, but them holding him up as a shining example when he had spent many years in jail for many different crimes throughout his illustrious career, is uh short sighted? I’ve not seen a single person anywhere hold Floyd up as some sort of saint or mensch. His trouble past has been referred to even by his family and friends. But what does it have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/58 "2020-06-10T14:05:45Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > … > > If you know that black people are more proportionally criminals do you focus on them as a group or do you ignore the data and provide everyone with the same chance? > … We don’t know this, at least when it comes to drug crimes. In fact, my cite shows that whites engage in more illegal drug use than blacks do. All we know is that blacks are more monitored by police than whites are. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/59 "2020-06-10T14:27:49Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > We don’t know this, at least when it comes to drug crimes. In fact, my cite shows that whites engage in more illegal drug use than blacks do. All we know is that blacks are more monitored by police than whites are. Do you have a statistic which bears out total crime, or just drug related crimes? I haven’t gotten through you link yet. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/60 "2020-06-10T14:34:43Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Do you have a statistic which bears out total crime, or just drug related crimes? I haven’t gotten through you link yet. I have no doubt that total crime in black communities is higher. This is, at least in part, driven by: 1. More policing in black communities, so they find more crime (see my drug cite) 2. Mistreatment of black people by police, leading to distrust and the creation of an honor culture in black communities (see **Human Action** ’s post and Better Angels of Our Nature The honor culture drives many crimes of violence, since they can’t trust the police to be a neutral arbiter. The extra enforcement of drug crimes in black communities leads to broken families and further distrust of police. In any case, crime in black communities is way, way, way down from what it was even two decades ago. All crime is way down. Violent crime in black communities today is far, far lower than it was in other honor culture societies throughout history. This is all laid out in Better Angels, but I don’t own it so I can’t give you specific cites. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150.md?page=4)