# Is there a racial disparity in police shootings in America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2020, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150 "2020-06-06T12:25:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/61 "2020-06-10T14:34:51Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > We don’t know this, at least when it comes to drug crimes. In fact, my cite shows that whites engage in more illegal drug use than blacks do. All we know is that blacks are more monitored by police than whites are. The link is a sample sized survey of less than 5,000 College undergrads, do you think college kids these days are more or less likely to do drugs than the general populace? Maybe find a sample of the general populace. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/62 "2020-06-10T14:38:41Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I have no doubt that total crime in black communities is higher. This is, at least in part, driven by: > > 1. More policing in black communities, so they find more crime (see my drug cite) > 2. Mistreatment of black people by police, leading to distrust and the creation of an honor culture in black communities (see **Human Action** ’s post and Better Angels of Our Nature > > The honor culture drives many crimes of violence, since they can’t trust the police to be a neutral arbiter. The extra enforcement of drug crimes in black communities leads to broken families and further distrust of police. > > In any case, crime in black communities is way, way, way down from what it was even two decades ago. All crime is way down. Violent crime in black communities today is far, far lower than it was in other honor culture societies throughout history. This is all laid out in Better Angels, but I don’t own it so I can’t give you specific cites. Look, I can understand that what you say makes a bit of sense to me, but in a nation of laws vigilantes aren’t help up as the example we aspire to need or want. If the black community does BELIEVE (and I believe this to be true) that they can’t rely on the police, then that is indeed a failing that needs to be addressed. Whether or not the statement is true, we need to address their belief. But too many people want to argue that that statement of belief is TRUE. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/63 "2020-06-10T14:43:56Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > The link is a sample sized survey of less than 5,000 College undergrads, do you think college kids these days are more or less likely to do drugs than the general populace? Maybe find a sample of the general populace. Here’s a relevant site (warning: PDF): [https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2018/020.pdf](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2018/020.pdf) Here, it looks like drug use by blacks is 13.1% vs. 11.6% for whites (1.5% difference). However, looking at only marijuana, which is a subset of those numbers, blacks are 1.8% more likely to use it. So, if you back out marijuana usage (which, by 2017 was well on its way to being decriminalized), you again see higher usage by whites. For example, if you look at the prescription drug misuse, whites are higher. So, I’ll retract my previous cite and let’s call it a tie for illegal drug usage. Do you think whites and black are arrested, hassled, incarcerated at equal rates for drug crimes? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/64 "2020-06-10T14:45:05Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Look, I can understand that what you say makes a bit of sense to me, but in a nation of laws vigilantes aren’t help up as the example we aspire to need or want. > If the black community does BELIEVE (and I believe this to be true) that they can’t rely on the police, then that is indeed a failing that needs to be addressed. > > Whether or not the statement is true, we need to address their belief. > > But too many people want to argue that that statement of belief is TRUE. > > I disagree. The protests are all about this. It’s what Black Lives Matter is about – mistreatment of blacks by police officers. Given this post, I think our opportunity for productive debate has concluded. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/65 "2020-06-10T14:46:31Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Here’s a relevant site (warning: PDF): [https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2018/020.pdf](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2018/020.pdf) > > Here, it looks like drug use by blacks is 13.1% vs. 11.6% for whites (1.5% difference). However, looking at only marijuana, which is a subset of those numbers, blacks are 1.8% more likely to use it. So, if you back out marijuana usage (which, by 2017 was well on its way to being decriminalized), you again see higher usage by whites. For example, if you look at the prescription drug misuse, whites are higher. > > So, I’ll retract my previous cite and let’s call it a tie for illegal drug usage. Do you think whites and black are arrested, hassled, incarcerated at equal rates for drug crimes? Are prescription drugs illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/66 "2020-06-10T14:48:50Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > The protests are all about this. It’s what Black Lives Matter is about – mistreatment of blacks by police officers. Given this post, I think our opportunity for productive debate has concluded. I have always agreed that any mistreatment (the actual mistreatment) of black people by the police needed to be addressed. I mean I’ve said that many many times. But the debate goes far beyond that, and that is what I have been attempting to debate which no one really wants to address. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/67 "2020-06-10T14:51:02Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I have always agreed that any mistreatment (the actual mistreatment) of black people by the police needed to be addressed. > I mean I’ve said that many many times. > > But the debate goes far beyond that, and that is what I have been attempting to debate which no one really wants to address. You’ve ignored several posts that attempt to go “far beyond that”. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/68 "2020-06-10T14:51:45Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Are prescription drugs illegal? The column is for illegal use of prescription drugs – probably mostly opioids. Yes, illegal use of prescription drugs is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/69 "2020-06-10T14:53:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’ve ignored several posts that attempt to go “far beyond that”. Which posts are those? I haven’t intentionally ignored anything that I found to be interesting enough to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/70 "2020-06-10T14:54:56Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Most of the black men shot and killed were killed by other black men. Almost half the homicide victims in America are black and almost all of the victims are kill by other black men. (Source: [FBI Statistics](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls)). According to your link, the majority of all \*white \*victims were killed by \*white \*offenders, so what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/71 "2020-06-10T14:57:42Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > The column is for illegal use of prescription drugs – probably mostly opioids. Yes, illegal use of prescription drugs is illegal. Ok, let’s call the drug usage even then. I’m on board, now what? The prosecution of different drugs have different legal ramifications, Id be interested in seeing the statistics that show white drug users of the same nature are being treated differently. Originally we started out asking why police are more heavily in the black communities. I answered , crime. TOTAL crime. Violent crime You have responded with but drug crime is equal, ok but what does this tell us about why the police are in the black communities more? (or too much, or disproportional to the need) ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/72 "2020-06-10T14:58:46Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > According to your link, the majority of all \*white \*victims were killed by \*white \*offenders, so what’s your point? I would guess his point is in total numbers … ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/73 "2020-06-10T15:07:02Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Which posts are those? I haven’t intentionally ignored anything that I found to be interesting enough to discuss. Ha! Fair enough. But then you can’t really claim “no one wants to address” the larger aspects of the debate, when you ignore posts as being not interesting enough that attempt to do this. > [@Kearsen1](#): > > Ok, let’s call the drug usage even then. I’m on board, now what? The prosecution of different drugs have different legal ramifications, Id be interested in seeing the statistics that show white drug users of the same nature are being treated differently. > > Originally we started out asking why police are more heavily in the black communities. I answered , crime. TOTAL crime. Violent crime > > You have responded with but drug crime is equal, ok but what does this tell us about why the police are in the black communities more? (or too much, or disproportional to the need) They’ve always been in the black communities more. They were in 1850; they were in 1900; they were in 1950, and 1975, and they still are now. Why isn’t it plausible to you to suggest that they’re still there disproportionately for the same or similar reasons that they were for all of American history? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/74 "2020-06-10T16:05:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ha! > > Fair enough. But then you can’t really claim “no one wants to address” the larger aspects of the debate, when you ignore posts as being not interesting enough that attempt to do this. > > They’ve always been in the black communities more. They were in 1850; they were in 1900; they were in 1950, and 1975, and they still are now. Why isn’t it plausible to you to suggest that they’re still there disproportionately for the same or similar reasons that they were for all of American history? It isn’t that it denies plausibility, but TODAY, the data suggests that they are NEEDED there more. If the data showed otherwise then you’d score points and people would rush to believe you. That is the debate we are having today. If the police are racially motivated, you’d never be able to tell because the black community does themselves no favors by being more crime ridden. According to the data. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/75 "2020-06-10T16:20:15Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Ok, let’s call the drug usage even then. I’m on board, now what? The prosecution of different drugs have different legal ramifications, Id be interested in seeing the statistics that show white drug users of the same nature are being treated differently. Did you read #55 ? That should show a clear systemic bias which ends up racist (even in the unlikely event the policy wasn’t deliberately racist to start with). IIRC the racist disparity mentioned in #55 was addressed by the Fair Sentencing Act of 2010, but only partly — a big disparity still exists just in charges for cocaine use. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/76 "2020-06-10T16:27:47Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Did you read #55 ? That should show a clear systemic bias which ends up racist (even in the unlikely event the policy wasn’t deliberately racist to start with). > > IIRC the racist disparity mentioned in #55 was addressed by the Fair Sentencing Act of 2010, but only partly — a big disparity still exists just in charges for cocaine use. I don’t know enough about either of those drugs to make an educated guess as to why they would view them differently, do you? Is one more addictive? More dangerous? More or less any differences between the two that would result in the law makers viewing them differently? Because if the only difference is that one is more predominant in black communities, then yes I agree. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/77 "2020-06-10T16:29:41Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > It isn’t that it denies plausibility, but TODAY, the data suggests that they are NEEDED there more. > > If the data showed otherwise then you’d score points and people would rush to believe you. > > That is the debate we are having today. If the police are racially motivated, you’d never be able to tell because the black community does themselves no favors by being more crime ridden. According to the data. The data _that is affected by police behavior_. If these statistics are as they are because the cops act with systemic racism, then it’s not anything wrong with “the black community”, it’s something wrong with police. And considering that for all of American history, black people were targeted more, these seems highly plausible. And there’s data – that’s certainly what data like the Ferguson report, and polls that show half of all black Americans personally reporting mistreatment by cops, suggests. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/78 "2020-06-10T16:44:06Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I don’t know enough about either of those drugs to make an educated guess as to why they would view them differently, do you? > Is one more addictive? More dangerous? More or less any differences between the two that would result in the law makers viewing them differently? > > Because if the only difference is that one is more predominant in black communities, then yes I agree. Google is your friend: [https://www.aclu.org/other/cracks-system-20-years-unjust-federal-crack-cocaine-law](https://www.aclu.org/other/cracks-system-20-years-unjust-federal-crack-cocaine-law) > **[Crack vs. Powder Cocaine: One Drug, Two Penalties](https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/crack-vrs-powder-cocaine-one-drug-two-penalties.htm)** > > Although both are variations of the same drug, the two have historically different consequences with the law. Learn more about the legal history of these drugs. [https://www.vocativ.com/underworld/drugs/crack-vs-coke-sentencing/index.html](https://www.vocativ.com/underworld/drugs/crack-vs-coke-sentencing/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/79 "2020-06-10T16:47:42Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > This is where, to me, it gets murky. > > Do the cops spend more time there because that is where most of the calls, crime originate from, OR do they spend time there looking? > > This where the bias (that doesn’t need to be racial in origin) kicks in. > > If you know that black people are more proportionally criminals do you focus on them as a group or do you ignore the data and provide everyone with the same chance? > > I think most folks find it hard to ignore the data but it should definitely be pushed. And especially in the cases of racially motivated police work, that shit needs to be stamped out. That blue wall you mentioned should not and likely would not exist if there was no Union… Both. Why cant it be both and one feeds on the other? It certainly would. The Unions are not to blame. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150/80 "2020-06-10T17:00:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The data _that is affected by police behavior_. If these statistics are as they are because the cops act with systemic racism, then it’s not anything wrong with “the black community”, it’s something wrong with police. And considering that for all of American history, black people were targeted more, these seems highly plausible. And there’s data – that’s certainly what data like the Ferguson report, and polls that show half of all black Americans personally reporting mistreatment by cops, suggests. Police departments collect data about crime and arrests, and they could be biased because they are targeting black neighborhoods and ignoring white neighborhoods. If that were true it would mean that white neighborhoods are being systematically ignored by police and either white people are fine with it and don’t complain or their complaints are being ignored. Given the stereotype that white women are quick to complain and are prone to calling cops, does either sound likely to be true. There is more than one way to collect data. The [survey](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv18.pdf)the BOJ does of crime victims can not be biased by police departments and yet it shows the same thing as the police department’s reports. Black people are much more likely to be the perpetrator and of crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-racial-disparity-in-police-shootings-in-america/855150.md?page=5)