Is there a reason the industrial/information revolution could not have happened thousands of years earlier?

It absolutely could have happened earlier but it would have meant several things happening in the same place at some earlier point in time, not just one. Off the top of my head (remembering my GCSE history essays which went into this ad nauseum):

  • A large population (including a pool of rural poor who weren’t tied to the land via feudalism* or slavery, and could move en masse to the cities)
  • Relative stability and peace
  • Scientific and engineering advancements and the rise of the scientific method (and the wherewithal via the printing press to disseminate them)
  • Enough wealthy people who could bum around and do science without worrying about where the money is coming from (a foreign empire that can be plundered for huge piles of cash helps here)
  • Large middle class free to exploit technological advances
  • Abundant raw materials, particularly fuel in the form of coal

No one of those things was unique to northern Europe in the 1700-1800s but you need all of them for an industrial revolution, and once it starts they produce a positive feedback loop.

    • I know an unfashionable word nowadays, but its is still true that a rural peasant in 1800 Britain was far less tied to the land and able to move to the city than one in 1400.

This is it. Society has to be configured properly for these kinds of leaps forward. It’s not something that can be accomplished by a few “great men”. Marx was right about that.

What’s the consensus on this? It’s my understanding that a lot of scientific/technological advances were made during WWII.

So AFAIK it was the industrial revolution (and associated political and social changes, including the rise of nationalism) that made possible the huge industrial “total wars” of the 20th century, which were associated with the technological advances. There were plenty of wars before the industrial revolution but they were not associated with wider technological advances and social changes.

The industrial revolution could not have happened, for example, in 1600s Britain which was racked by civil war (that was what I was taught at school anyway :slight_smile: )

Sure, but they weren’t made in occupied France or Poland; they happened in places that still were free (or relatively free) from direct military attack.

I don’t believe there’s a factual answer to the OP’s question. We might arrive at some common theories, but I don’t think there’s a definitive answer.

And this is part of it. It’s the old “You need the tools to build the tools” problem. Steam engines require much better manufacturing tolerances than things like walls and catapults. The tools you use to build a wall usually won’t be precise enough to build a steam engine.

And it took many generations to refine the tools. Part of that is the scale of operations. There’s not much point in developing very precise tools that let you replicate parts with fine enough tolerances to allow mass production if you don’t need to build more than a few machines a year.

You don’t get an “industrial revolution” until you need to build things on an industrial scale. For most of human history, building stuff on an artisanal scale was all we needed. It’s probably not a coincidence that we developed industry at just about the same time our population became much larger. You can equip an army of 10,000 using blacksmiths. Equipping an army of 100,000 is a bit harder.

Interesting thread. I guess my question is what was going on in 18th century Britain that enabled the accelerated development of already existing technology to make them more efficient, such that they could be “industrialized”? Such as the steam engine - known already, but what enabled the innovations to adapt steam power to put it to use for labor intensive tasks?

Were there specific cultural, political, or natural resource attributes in Britain during that time that, combined, resulted in quick innovation and adaptation of existing technology to industries existing there at that time? Were some of those conditions not present prior to that?

I agree there are multiple factors that eventually converged.

Metal - metal was always expensive to mine, smelt, and shape. Iron, particularly, required an immense amount of heat. So all metals were precious. Greek columns, for example, held together by lead clips - when times got unsettled, scavengers would chip those bits out of the buildings. The idea that you could produce enough metal to lay miles of iron rails across the countryside and not have anyone sneak over and steal them in the night was a pipe (!) dream.

Energy - to produce that level of metal to make reliable machines, required massive amounts of energy. I have a book on industrial archaeology, mentions the crude iron smelters of New Jersey. there was a ramp to the top of the furnace to dump wood in. After a decade or two, the massive woods were cleared for miles around. Is it any surprise the industrial revolution happened in places where (coal) energy was abundant? So too, slavery negated the need for serious labour-saving devices, if it wasn’t your labour. A steam gizmo to turn the wheel in a mill was useless if you needed slaves to scour the countryside to bring the wood to feed it. It’s no surprise the first use of originally very inefficient steam engines was to help pump out coal mines,

I’ll add to that climate. Northern Europe particularly but the area in general benefits from a fairly wet climate that allows a reliable food source, wood for construction and building the earlier machines. The windmills that drained the Netherlands polders, for example, were a rare example of mechanization with immense benefit. Romans built catapults of wood, but Italy was not as much renowned for big forests. In northern Europe, they were right there, not a long way off in Lebanon. And in a more temperate climate, there were less issues with diseases common in the tropics.

Science - the experimental method cannot be underestimated. Science in the middle ages consisted of quoting the classical experts. Who were you to think you knew better than Galen or Archimedes or Aristotle? Once one group started to show things were not all as was believed, it opened the door. And as mentioned, a middle/upper class with the leisure to “fiddle” or meditate and then experiment was a bonus, so moderately rich stable economies helped. (Not to mention the social mobility implied in a middle class, where by using one’s cleverness, you could hope to earn a richer lifestyle).

Printing - and perhaps, unsettled politics - the ability to disseminate knowledge rapidly, to broadcast it across the continent, more than anything created an “arms race” of knowledge. Two people at the same time argued over who created calculus. The existence of multiple independent states made it harder to suppress unpopular learning or suppress actions that competed with state monopolies (think Britain’s salt monopoly in India, the colonial trade restrictions, Spain’s monopolies in the New World, or many similar royal decrees over time, which carried no weight beyond limited borders), and the decline of Rome’s power with the Reformation added to that - things mentioned as an aside in scripture could be ignored. Each step built on the previous.

An interesting book on this subject is Diamond’s Guns, Germs, and Steel. It discusses why Europe won the race to become an industrial powerhouse over many other areas; and suggests luck in having the right convergence of resource, more than any factor, helped. The important thing to understand is that it was a growing accumulation of all the pieces needed in a steadying rush. The printing press was centuries before the industrial revolution. The scientific rush started with the renaissance, in the 1500’s. The age of exploration demanded bigger and better ships and navigation, well before the steam engine.

Yeah, I think the additional part of that was that the various peoples of Europe were in close proximity to one another, so that forced them to compete with one another, and if you could out-innovate the people in the next valley by smithing more and more robust weapons, you could not only protect your people, but subjugate those people in the next valley. What a great thing!

Yeah a whole bunch, and if any one of them hadn’t been there then the industrial revolution didn’t happen.

The rise of the scientific method was important, so rather than just randomly tinkering (though there was a lot of that) people (like James Watt) started developing theories that explained why steam engines work and how to improve them.
Improvements in the reliability and precision of engineering (these did actually come from the military sphere, with origins in cannon manufacturing)
A large middle class with the wherewithal and desire to use the new technology for commercial purposes (in earlier eras the aristocrats who held all the power were morally adverse to commercial endeavors, and non-aristocrats who successfully rose by commerce were considered objectionable)
Plus all the other things listed above.

I happened to have just read Tom Holland’s books Rubicon and Dynasty about the end of the Roman Republic and the beginnings of the Empire. He had a lot to say on Roman attitudes towards the Greeks as soft and hedonistic and inwardly to the Roman historical culture of manliness, which glorified warriors and doers and slighted intellectuals. As with all history, such books must be read as generalizations and tendencies, allowing for exceptions at times and places and circumstances.

The Antikythera device is one such exception. We can’t say anything about its place in the culture because nothing is known. It certainly didn’t lead to an industrial culture or spawn numerous imitations or change the thrust of intellectual development.

Another book I recently read was Tamim Ansary’s The Invention of Yesterday: A 50,000-Year History of Human Culture, Conflict, and Connection. Ansary succeeds at the impossible feat of generalizing everything better than any of the other Big History books that have been popular in the last decade. He does an excellent job of showing why cultures happened when and where they did across the world and makes it more readable than the mostly academic others. As a collection of generalizations it has flaws and errors and unlikely suppositions. But so do the competition. I especially liked it because it gives the needed overview of world history that serves as a background whenever you try to dive more deeply into a particular time and place.

This is a huge one. Steel has been around for a long time but the science of large scale economical production of quality steel had just begun in the 18th century. Many notable structures from the early industrial age still used wrought and cast iron. Steel is considerably lighter and strong than iron, and the design parameters for steel were barely known yet.

This is a huge part of it. The first practical steam engines were built to pump water out of coal mines. Why? Because they were so inefficient fhat it would not have been worthwhile to move coal around for other purposes. Only where you already had an abudnance of coal (which was being mined to be burned for warmth since England overharvested its forests) did it make sense to star using and improving steam engines.

Economic considerations are absolutely key here, and until steam technology becomes fairly developed, it just doesn’t make sense to adopt it in most industries. And the slavery based economy, as noted above, devalues labor saving devices even further.

Mining of coal (because the trees had been overharvested) from deep mines (because the shallow coal had previously been mined) that flooded.

A fascinating article on the topic:

Robert Allen, author of the dry academic tome The British Industrial Revolution in Global Perspective summarized it in a short, readable article online, Why was the Industrial Revolution British?

This is more your territory than mine (which is why I’m asking!), but suppose he had? What useful work was there for it to do? Based on the Wikipedia article, it looks as if, when the steam engine came into use in the 1600s and after, for a century or two it was used largely for pumping water. So it’s hard for me to see that the steam engine could have led to a technological revolution in the early centuries of the C.E.

(Also, what would Hero have been able to use for a belt, and how durable and tangle-free would it have been?)

Here’s a thought: suppose the Roman Empire’s end hadn’t been a civilizational collapse, but just a transition to a different set of governments with the same general ethos, covering the same territory. Could the Industrial Revolution have happened several centuries earlier?

Exponential growth or no exponential growth, it seems that very little advancement of either knowledge or technology happened in Europe during the CE 500-1400 period, compared to the period before, as well as that after.

Massive amounts of knowledge and technology occurred in the Islamic world during that period but little of it advanced into a cohesive rise in society.

One reason that historians give is that Europe after the renaissance was split into literally hundreds of small “countries” (a modern name I’m applying to all the little fiefdoms that were under local control even if nominally bound to a larger entity). Each of them needed to compete with the others and were always looking for any advantage. This was especially true when Protestantism came into play, and that world didn’t have to answer to the Pope. (Although the Italian city-states had already provided a model for competition and faction.) The countries sought equally to gain monopolies over each innovation and to steal from others for themselves. Innovations spread. Slowly over centuries, but spread widely nevertheless. The printing press speeded the process and spread literacy, which also was boosted by protestant thinking, which called for believers to read their own bibles, as opposed to Catholicism, where priests read the bible to their flocks.

The Islamic world was run by a caliph (or, in reality, several caliphs in different places that didn’t compete). Localities didn’t need to worry about making money or fending off neighbors looking to expand. This was an excellent environment for scholars and libraries, but not one that fostered entrepreneurship. Nor did the economy depend on mining, industry, and craftwork, fields where Europeans vied. Additionally, the Quran was meant to be committed to memory, so the printing press and literacy were luxuries for the intellectual class, not common to the public.

Stuff didn’t happen earlier because it wasn’t just one thing that tripped exponential change but dozens of huge societal events converging in a short period in a small area in just the right way. It’s all or nothing.

One could also ask, why are we not still living in a non-industrial world?

Being slightly facetious, the question is answered by the anthropic principle. We can ask the question because we are living in an industrialised and technologically advanced society. If we were not, the question would not occur to us.

Technological advances rather than just scientific advances require major drivers. Economic or military commonly. A society of happy hunter gatherers who spend an hour a day obtaining food and otherwise generally enjoying life are not going to work 8 hours days making a better society they still need to work 8 hour days in.

But if you can see a better life for your efforts, where instead of spending the daylight hours toiling in the fields before retiring to sleep in a dirt floored hut, but rather can live in a brick house with access to clean water, heating, and only have to work 10 hours a day in a factory. Well you have incentive to drive the revolution.

That transition has been a key driver. Science enables it, but reaching a point where the transition becomes self perpetuating needs the economy, and infrastructure to reach a critical point where there is a clear and attainable improvement in life available to the larger population. That hump takes a lot of effort to reach and some degree of luck. Such as raw materials being within reach of pre- industrial capabilities.