# Is there a reason why Iraq has to be kept intact? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885 "2014-06-16T05:32:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/1 "2014-06-16T05:32:32Z")
Iraq was the result of a shotgun wedding [arranged by the British and French](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes-Picot_Agreement) of some ethnically and religiously different former provinces of the old Ottoman Empire. It’s history has been one of almost constant repression, violence, and dysfunction. Thus, for the benefit of the Iraqis and everyone else, would it be best if the country was divided three ways? Let’s discuss. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/2 "2014-06-16T05:41:49Z")
Problematic mainly because the oil is concentrated in one (ethnically-defined) region, and the population in another. You see the problem? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/3 "2014-06-16T05:45:38Z")
Intermarriage is quite common and many areas are ethnically mixed. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/4 "2014-06-16T05:56:10Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Problematic mainly because the oil is concentrated in one (ethnically-defined) region, and the population in another. You see the problem? And also because the ‘countries’ it breaks up into includes bits of other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/5 "2014-06-16T06:04:03Z")
Neighboring countries like Iran, Turkey, and Syria have always opposed the idea of their being an independent Kurdistan because they fear it would encourage their own Kurdish population to secede in order to join (which is a realistic concern). ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/6 "2014-06-16T07:08:32Z")
Is there a reason why they can’t get over their religious differences? Is there something about being a Sunni that means you absolutely must kill every Shi’a who lives in the area and vice versa? Eventually, bloodshed will lead the survivors to realize “hey we’re not all that different from those other guys after all”. Until then I see no reason why new countries should be formed just so they can be filled with people who hate their neighbors and want to kill them. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/7 "2014-06-16T07:16:40Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > Is there a reason why they can’t get over their religious differences? Is there something about being a Sunni that means you absolutely must kill every Shi’a who lives in the area and vice versa? No, of course not. The differences between these two communities are not theological, any more than the differences at stake in the conflict in Northern Ireland were theological, or in the former Yugoslavia. Religious denomination serves as a mark of distinction between the communities; a handy way to tell one from the other. But it’s not the source of the conflict between them which is, as so often, about competition for power, resources and status. In any event, much of the tension in Iraq is between communities whose distinctions are not even nominally religious. The Kurds are predominantly Sunni, but are at odd with Sunni Arabs (and with Shia Arabs). ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/8 "2014-06-16T07:47:45Z")
So assuming we break Iraq up into Shi’astan, Sunnistan and Kurdistan, they’re all just going to declare war on each other anyhow because each one has something the others want. What a clusterfuck. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/9 "2014-06-16T08:04:48Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > So assuming we break Iraq up into Shi’astan, Sunnistan and Kurdistan, they’re all just going to declare war on each other anyhow because each one has something the others want. What a clusterfuck. Who’s this “we”? There’s a Kurdish independence movement which _wants_ out of Iraq (and Turkey, and Iran). Should they get their way on that point, they’re unlikely to want to start grabbing things from Iraq or Iran or Turkey. On the other hand, they may well have to fight a defensive war, should those countries take it into their head that they don’t particularly wish to lose their Kurdish provinces at the whim of your “we”. The only people who can really sort this out are the communities concerned. However, as they have the misfortune to have lots and lots of oil, it’s very unlikely that they’ll ever be allowed to do that. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/10 "2014-06-16T08:20:32Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Who’s this “we”? Erm, no offense intended. It’s a royal “we”, in line with the OP’s assumption that Iraq can be broken up somehow into you in your corner and you in yours. Any such partition would have to be a forced relocation so the “we” is whomever would be supplying such force. The “we” is largely hypothetical, since I can’t forsee Iraq realistically being broken up into three parts regardless of how many problems that might solve. I agree with you about Kurdistan. It is my assumption that Kurdistan would be attacked by all their neighbors because no one other than Kurds seems to like the idea of a Kurdish nation sitting atop a bunch of oil. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/11 "2014-06-16T09:53:50Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > Is there a reason why they can’t get over their religious differences? Is there something about being a Sunni that means you absolutely must kill every Shi’a who lives in the area and vice versa? No, but it only takes one Sunni (or Shi’a) out of 10,000 to plant bombs or start shooting to fuck it up for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/12 "2014-06-16T10:43:45Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Intermarriage is quite common and many areas are ethnically mixed. So was Yugoslavia. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/13 "2014-06-16T12:11:25Z")
I have a good solution to stabilize Iraq. They need a strong-armed dictator, perhaps someone from the fierce al-Tikriti clan. Someone from the Ba’ath Party might be best – it has widespread regional influence and support from both Sunnis and Shi’ites. To keep the peace, a very ruthless dictator might be the choice. Of course a very ruthless dictator might plan aggressions against his neighbors, but I think the U.N. would be able to keep him in line with a regime of sanctions, inspections and overflights. Hope this helped. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/14 "2014-06-16T12:31:47Z")
Sounds familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/15 "2014-06-16T12:51:46Z")
Because partitioning a country always creates a situation wherein thousands or millions of people, who have lived their entire lives in a particular place as did their ancestors, suddenly find themselves in a foreign land and are turned into homeless refugees through no action of their own. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/16 "2014-06-16T13:40:44Z")
As I’ve been saying for years here, it took Europe hundreds of years, major wars and significant ethnic cleansing in order to sort out what are, now, pretty much stable borders. There is no reason to think the same isn’t going to happen in the Middle East. Maybe not the hundreds of years of wars part, but time, wars and ethnic cleansing. What we’re seeing is just the beginning, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/17 "2014-06-16T14:13:00Z")
ISIS isn’t fighting for an independent “Iraqi Sunnistan.” The Shi’ites do not seem to want independence, either. al-Sistani, for one, encourages able-bodied Iraqi men of all faiths to join _not_ the Shi’ite militias, but instead “[the national security forces (‘al-quwwat al-amniyyah’)](http://www.juancole.com/2014/06/ayatollah-against-terrorists.html)”. [Here’s his latest statement, translated into English](http://news.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/latest-updates-on-the-insurgency-in-iraq/): > [@](#): > > In the Name of God, the ever-merciful, the ever-compassionate, the Highest Religious Authority: > > calls upon all the citizens – especially those living in mixed areas – to exert the highest possible level of self-restraint during this tumultuous period; > > and all groups to behave in the most compassionate and kindest of manners; > > and to steer clear from sectarian and untamed-nationalistic discourse that is of detriment to Iraq’s national unity; > > moreover, emphasizes the need to refrain from militant acts that are outside legal frameworks; > > furthermore, calls upon the official state actors to take the necessary measures to prevent such actions. Meanwhile, Iraqi Kurdistan’s latest BFF seems to be… [… Turkey!](http://time.com/2879150/the-only-winners-in-iraqs-chaos-the-kurds/) > [@](#): > > Years ago, the Kurds turned away from Baghdad to Ankara, in the hopes of finding a new regional champion. And, surprise surprise, in Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, they found such a partner. In a striking turnaround from 2007, when the Turks were so afraid of Kurdish secession they positioned 200,000 troops on the Kurdish border, Turkey has more recently embraced Kurdistan as a moderate partner and an important steady source of oil, as Turkey seeks to cement itself as the oil gateway from the Middle East to Europe. > > Turkey doesn’t yet support Kurdish independence, but Erdogan has been making progress to normalize relations with his own Kurdish population in the south, freeing the head of the PKK (Kurdistan Workers’ Party) resistance group and recognizing Kurdish as a language. The border, once lined with troops, is now open and flowing with goods and tourist traffic that moves both ways. The Middle East, man. Never gets dull. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/18 "2014-06-16T15:40:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because partitioning a country always creates a situation wherein thousands or millions of people, who have lived their entire lives in a particular place as did their ancestors, suddenly find themselves in a foreign land and are turned into homeless refugees through no action of their own. This happened in 1993 in Czechoslovakia which dissolved into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. So could someone here go through the catastrophic consequences which resulted? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/19 "2014-06-16T15:45:40Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > This happened in 1993 in Czechoslovakia which dissolved into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. So could someone here go through the catastrophic consequences which resulted? The poster should have said “almost always”. BFD, unless you think Iraq is somehow like Czechoslovakia. ---
**Author:** ![Ad\_Astra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Ad\_Astra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ad_Astra)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885/20 "2014-06-16T15:53:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I have a good solution to stabilize Iraq. > > They need a strong-armed dictator, perhaps someone from the fierce al-Tikriti clan. Someone from the Ba’ath Party might be best – it has widespread regional influence and support from both Sunnis and Shi’ites. > > To keep the peace, a very ruthless dictator might be the choice. Of course a very ruthless dictator might plan aggressions against his neighbors, but I think the U.N. would be able to keep him in line with a regime of sanctions, inspections and overflights. > > Hope this helped. Take that a step further and look at the international implications. A stronger, more unified Iraq would be an excellent counter-balance to Iran. Obviously the West doesn’t want to be directly involved in a war with Iran, but if one of our ME allies in the form of this (purely hypothetical) leader was to become embroiled in a conflict, we’d have to support him somehow. Maybe providing intelligence, or lifting restrictions on sales of military hardware. I think you might be on to something here - this might be the solution we’ve been looking for. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-reason-why-iraq-has-to-be-kept-intact/690885.md?page=2)