# Is there a right way to do cultural appropriation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745 "2021-04-25T17:23:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/81 "2021-04-26T19:15:03Z")
Are people from cultures that have engaged in systematic and devastating oppression of your own culture for decades or centuries up to the current moment stereotyping your culture for laughs? Or are those people monetizing your culture in a way that you’re unable to do, given the institutional structures that privilege them? If neither of these things are true, then you’re talking about a price you don’t pay. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/82 "2021-04-26T19:18:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If neither of these things are true, then you’re talking about a price you don’t pay. Seeing as “offence” was the specific price I stated (go back and read) and offence is indeed something I’m willing to put up with then yes…it is price I pay. You want to argue the other points then feel free to find someone who claims to experience them. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/83 "2021-04-26T19:20:51Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > The fact that the OP has to ask this question , and we all have to fear for our jobs if we answer incorrectly, is sad. The fact that you can’t even hear the question “is there a right way to do cultural appropriation” without ranting about how America is no longer a “free country”, “woke folk” and “wholesale banning of eating food from somebody else’s culture” is what is sad. No one in this thread has to “fear for their jobs” based on their responses here. Unless we happen to work for OANN, anyone who is concerned about discussing the nuances of cultural appropriation should feel safe to do so without falling victim of the Cancel Culture being promoted by the right. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/84 "2021-04-26T19:24:01Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > This is the money quote right here. “That’s a price worth paying,” you say, not acknowledging that you’ll not be the one paying the price. > > How do you know what aspects of **my own culture** are regularly trivialised, demeaned, satirised or mocked? > > When I talk about it being a price worth paying I do so in full knowledge that it is me paying as well. I think this turn of phrase hits on a key part of the issue, and why I suspect that many (but certainly not all) of the people who complain about cultural appropriation have it wrong. Unless (generic) you is the last member of a culture, the culture doesn’t belong to you, it’s instead something that you are a part of. Conservatives seem to twist this around in their heads and think that in some way they own the culture. It’s similar to how Republicans here in the US talk about “my country.” The country doesn’t belong to them, they are merely a citizen of it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/85 "2021-04-26T19:27:31Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Unless (generic) you is the last member of a culture, the culture doesn’t belong to you, I think we agree. I don’t think a “culture” as such belongs to anyone. That’s why I don’t think it is possible to assert ownership over any aspect of a culture. When I say “my own culture” I’m not asserting ownership, merely attachment. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/86 "2021-04-26T19:36:05Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think we agree. I don’t think a “culture” as such belongs to anyone. That’s why I don’t think it is possibly to assert ownership over any aspect of a culture. > > When I say “my own culture” I’m not asserting ownership, merely attachment. Agreed. It just so happened that your post was the one I saw using the phrase, is I used it as the example 😀. But I do think that type of thinking is what is fundamentally at issue with many of the people who do make a big deal about cultural appropriation. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/87 "2021-04-26T19:38:52Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Would you consider it appropriation if an Indian wore a cross? (Assuming they weren’t Christian.) Yeah. Not that I’d be particularly outraged or expend much effort in caring. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/88 "2021-04-26T19:46:18Z")
What’s our working definition of cultural appropriation here? Is it the borrowing of any aspect of a different culture appropriation or does it only count as appropriation if you are the dominant group that has been oppressing the group you borrowed from? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/89 "2021-04-26T20:06:08Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I feel like there are two very different things that get conflate here. > > One is trivializing important cultural elements for fun, or as a short cut for “exotic”. This is tacky and reveals a subconscious devaluation of other cultures. > > The other a tendency to cut out non-white content creators (from artists to actors to writers) while producing often highly-profitable media inspired by non-white cultures. This is just a new form of extractive economy. Like taking the mineral wealth from a country and leaving it in shambles, this uses the leverage of pre-existing media production wealth to not only make very profitable products, but to prevent anyone else from doing the same. > > Both these things are bad. Both these things are exploitative. But they aren’t the same, really. Not even saying one is worse or better, just they come from different places and motivations. By lumping them both as “cultural appropriation”, I think it creates an impression that anything to do with being inspired by another culture must lay somewhere on the spectrum between these two very different points. I concur with this. A missing piece that you don’t quite name explicitly, and which connects to some of the comments about “appropriation” of Christian culture, and/or “appropriation” from within a culture, is that one of the huge issues which the term “cultural appropriation” addresses is that of dominant cultures erasing other cultures by being in a position to create more powerful narratives about a given cultural expression. That said, I struggle with coming up with a clear definition of cultural appropriation that I can apply to situations in a way that feels internally and intellectually consistent, and describes what the ethical expectations are for an average citizen with regards to interacting with artifacts from other cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/90 "2021-04-26T20:32:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Let’s say that a U.S. college sorority (consisting of white women) wants to wear kimonos, or an American fashion company wants to make and sell kimonos. I would say that a sorority wearing kimonos is too close to turning them into a costume. That would be bordering on disrespect. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > If the cultural appropriation is patronisingly humorous, racist, disrespectful, making light of things that genuinely matter to another culture, then it’s not acceptable. Causing genuine hurt or offense is not acceptable. And also take into account cultural significance. If it’s something that’s just a fashion, I see no problem. If it’s something that has deep religions significance, you should probably avoid it. And cultural appropriation requires context. When the dominant culture takes (inappropriately) from a culture that’s been repressed for decades or centuries, that’s very different than a minority culture taking from the majority culture. All that said, most accusations of “cultural appropriation” nowadays seems to be bullshit. But that doesn’t mean every instance is. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/91 "2021-04-26T20:43:18Z")
That appears to be the direction we’re going in but even then it breaks down. While the Japanese have certainly suffered due to racism in the US (e.g. WW II internment camps) I don’t think we can we say that American culture has oppressed the Japanese. I.e. can someone living in Japan get upset at sororities having kimono parties? Or is it just Japanese Americans? My understanding is that few countries are as racist/xenophobic as Japan. Can a white Christian living in Japan cry cultural appropriation if Japanese girls are wearing sexy nun costumes? The whole argument seems convoluted. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/92 "2021-04-26T21:12:58Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > My understanding is that few countries are as racist/xenophobic as Japan. Can a white Christian living in Japan cry cultural appropriation if Japanese girls are wearing sexy nun costumes? The whole argument seems convoluted. The list of what the Japanese have done with Christianity is long. IIRC Christmas decorations back in the day (maybe in the current day as well?) included figures depicting Santa Claus being crucified. I grew up Catholic, and I suppose I should be offended by such things, but I find it amusing more than anything. I’d find it just at amusing if it was Chinese, Arabs, Indians, Kenyans, or any other nationality doing so. I’m not giving the Japanese a pass just because I happen to like their culture. Maybe my underlying attitude is why I don’t understand the POV of the people who do get worked up about it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/93 "2021-04-26T21:21:51Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > > [@Velocity](#): > > > > Let’s say that a U.S. college sorority (consisting of white women) wants to wear kimonos, or an American fashion company wants to make and sell kimonos. > > I would say that a sorority wearing kimonos is too close to turning them into a costume. That would be bordering on disrespect. A kimono _is_ a costume tho, isn’t it? Just like a suit is a costume. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/94 "2021-04-26T21:39:45Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > A missing piece that you don’t quite name explicitly, and which connects to some of the comments about “appropriation” of Christian culture, and/or “appropriation” from within a culture, is that one of the huge issues which the term “cultural appropriation” addresses is that of dominant cultures erasing other cultures by being in a position to create more powerful narratives about a given cultural expression. One of the examples of cultural appropriation we’ve seen has been the wearing of kimonos by Americans with no Japanese ancestry. Japan is a nation with a population of 125,000,000 and a very robust culture that is not dominated by the United States, actually exports its culture worldwide, and is not in any danger of being erased. Given that Japan isn’t oppressed, is a Texan wearing a kimono an example of cultural appropriation? And if so, why? It seems to me that a key element in whether it’s appropriation is largely dependent on the race of the person doing the appropriating. If you’re Kendrick Lamar, Nicki Minaj, Wu Tang Clan (who ain’t nothing to fuck with), or Sho’nuff then borrow to your heart’s content because few will complain. If you’re Katy Perry, watch out. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/95 "2021-04-27T15:57:18Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > A kimono _is_ a costume tho, isn’t it? Just like a suit is a costume. ISTM that Yookeroo here is using “costume” in the more common sense of “dressing up for a make-believe role that’s different from your real identity”. There are plenty of kimono-like garments (some of which have actually been called “kimonos” in English for many decades) that I would consider more adaptations of, or homages to, the Japanese kimono than appropriations of it. Americans creating and wearing something that’s explicitly intended to imitate the traditional Japanese kimono, on the other hand, comes acroos as thoughtlessly appropriating elements of a different culture just for “costume” purposes, to look “exotic”. > [@Odesio](#): > > It seems to me that a key element in whether it’s appropriation is largely dependent on the race of the person doing the appropriating. A good rule of thumb that I’ve seen for evaluating these situations is the following: “Would somebody from that culture be ‘othered’ by people around you if they were the ones doing that?” For example, one of the reasons that Black women have complained about non-Black women copying their hairstyles, earrings, etc., is that Black women frequently get told when they wear those styles that they look “unprofessional”, “too ghetto”, etc. If you as a white person can get away with wearing some “edgy” Black-originated style that a Black person would get some disapproval for, then that comes across as treating the style like a costume for its “exotic” look. But, for example, Black Americans generally don’t get “othered” for eating sweet potato pie which originated among people of West African descent in the American South. That’s something that has percolated into mainstream American culture shared by Black and non-Black Americans alike. Similarly, a Japanese or Japanese-American woman wearing a plain lacquered hairstick in her updo doesn’t look unusual or “exotic” in most American settings. Hairsticks, even though most of their modern use was originally inspired by traditional Japanese coiffures, are an ordinary item of American hair accessories now. But a Japanese or Japanese-American woman wearing a traditional kimono outfit on an American street would definitely look “different”, “exotic”, “foreign”, “Japanese”. So non-Japanese people doing that come across as “appropriating” a foreign cultural element for its “differentness”. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/96 "2021-04-27T16:42:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So non-Japanese people doing that come across as “appropriating” a foreign cultural element for its “differentness”. Is that wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/97 "2021-04-27T21:57:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > A kimono _is_ a costume tho, isn’t it? Just like a suit is a costume. No. > [@Kimstu](#): > > ISTM that Yookeroo here is using “costume” in the more common sense of “dressing up for a make-believe role that’s different from your real identity”. Clearly. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Americans creating and wearing something that’s explicitly intended to imitate the traditional Japanese kimono, on the other hand, comes acroos as thoughtlessly appropriating elements of a different culture just for “costume” purposes, to look “exotic”. My problem with the example was that the whole sorority would be wearing kimonos. That smacks of treating it like a costume. If an individual liked kimonos and felt she looks good in one, I wouldn’t call wearing one a costume in that instance. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/98 "2021-04-27T22:29:15Z")
But if the whole sorority were in suits, it wouldn’t look like they were all in costume? It wouldn’t seem as if they were “dressing up for a make-believe role that’s different from their real identity”? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/99 "2021-04-28T04:46:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > For example, one of the reasons that Black women have complained about non-Black women copying their hairstyles, earrings, etc., is that Black women frequently get told when they wear those styles that they look “unprofessional”, “too ghetto”, etc. If you as a white person can get away with wearing some “edgy” Black-originated style that a Black person would get some disapproval for, then that comes across as treating the style like a costume for its “exotic” look. In this particular case you’re talking about the dominant group taking from an oppressed group which is the key factor according to some definitions of cultural appropriation. I do see where you’re coming from and I think you make a valid point. Though I’m not quite sure where the line between cultural appropriation and exchange lies in this case. Cultural appropriation is a complicated subject and we likely have to look at each situation on a case by case basis, give it a good whiff, and see if it passes the smell test. Sometimes it’s easy to tell that the milk has gone bad and sometimes you’re just not sure. > [@Kimstu](#): > > But a Japanese or Japanese-American woman wearing a traditional kimono outfit on an American street would definitely look “different”, “exotic”, “foreign”, “Japanese”. So non-Japanese people doing that come across as “appropriating” a foreign cultural element for its “differentness”. But the context of this appropriation is quite different as the Japanese are not being oppressed by Americans nor is there any danger of American culture overwhelming Japanese culture. Far from it, Japan exports media to the United States. I jokingly asked one of my younger coworkers if she ever knew a world without Pokemon and she laughed and nodded no. Japan is willfully engaged in a cultural exchange with the United States. I don’t view this example as being equivalent to white Americans adopting fashions that originated among African Americans. Years ago, perhaps in the early 90s, I was watching either a news program or a documentary of some kind and it featured a _Rawhide_ fan club made up of middle aged Japanese men. Yeah, _Rawhide_ as in the 1960s western television series starring Clint Eastwood and Eric Fleming. In Japan, these guys would dress up like cowboys, meet in a bar/restaurant, watch _Rawhide,_ and fan boy it up. One of the fans was asked why a bunch of Japanese guys would love an American television series and he explained, “When there’s a problem, they all work together to solve it. So it’s actually very Japanese.” Is that cultural appropriation? A lot of people will say no, but why? An American or even a Japanese-American guy in a bar wearing traditional cowboy duds definitely looks “different,” “exotic,” “foreign,” and “American.” So it stands to reason that a Japanese person doing the same thing comes across as appropriating a foreign cultural element because it’s different. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745/100 "2021-04-28T06:20:50Z")
Well there really wouldn’t be a need or desire to adopt something from another culture that _wasn’t_ different, would there? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-cultural-appropriation/940745.md?page=6)