Is there a Santa Claus?

[Qasper]

*Originally posted by FloChi *
**D Suzanne, I’m with you.
Santa Claus is a device to make people conform.
**

What we’ve made of Christmas is a disgrace in itself - Santa or no Santa. Keep in mind that the fat, white bearded image of the guy was born with an old Coca-Cola x-mas marketing campaign, hence the red, white and black clothes (Coke’s colors). But y’all knew that already. Now I’m buddhist (and I’m not saying that to be cute, and I don’t believe in reincarnation, so back off!) but have deep respect for the ideology behind Christianity. What we’ve done to it through religion is disgraceful, but I digress (a tough habit to break). My point: Is Santa really the problem or is it not our materialistic and easy-fix mentality which has corrupted a basically good-natured legend?

**
This is why we have panhandlers, beggars and so on. In old times they would have been taekn into someones house and fed and everyone would have lived a nice communal life. **

A good friend of mine who’s an exchange student from Cameroun told me last week how utterly ridiculous we all are. To paraphrase his perspective: “I come from the poorest continent in the world, but you will never see a man sleep on our streets. If he is hungry, he will be fed. If he is homeless, he will be sheltered for the night. And yet, here you are in the richest country in the world with homeless wanderers loitering all over your public parks. Tell me how this makes sense, with all the ressources you could spare. It wouldn’t even be a sacrifice for you, and yet there they lay… Explain it to me, please.”

Predictably, I could not.
But I don’t think Santa’s the chief culprit here…

-Q-

[pepperlandgirl]

What we’ve made of Christmas is a disgrace in itself - Santa or no Santa. Keep in mind that the fat, white
bearded image of the guy was born with an old Coca-Cola x-mas marketing campaign, hence the red, white and
black clothes (Coke’s colors). But y’all knew that already.

Nope, sorry. Santa Claus was not created by Coke.

And what we’ve made of Christmas is a disgrace? Well, in the early days, Christmas was a week or month long druken, mass orgy. So I wouldn’t say it’s a disgrace now, but maybe a disapointment.

Who has ever recieved coal in leiu of presents?

Well, when I was 12 I received 1 1/2 ton of coal for Christmas. I had to unload it from my Dad’s truck. Does this count?

Oh, and BTW, I think that Cecil did a great job on his article.

[Una_Persson]

*Originally posted by dtilque *
**

*Originally posted by FloChi *
Who has ever recieved coal in leiu of presents?

This would go a long way to explaining Anthracite’s obsession…**

I like coal.

[el_mono]

Aw, Cecil… It would seem that you have a heart after all, one that perhaps has grown three sizes this day.

Forget presents. Forget about decking the malls with cards of plastic. Santa Claus is the personification of giving and in my mind that ain’t a bad thing in the least. The greatest single gift that one human being can give to another is that of sharing their time. Our time is a precious thing and in choosing to spend it in the company of another we let them know just how special they are to us.
The greatest joy for me during the holiday season is getting together with family and friends, putting aside all of the countless “things” that must be done on a regular basis, and spending time. It isn’t always easy to do this during the remainder of the year. And so if we continue to set aside a particular season devoted to that simple pursuit once each year, then hooray, I say.

Good column, Ceece. A Merry Christmas and/or happy holiday to each and every one of you and to all a good night…

[DRY]

*Originally posted by SpinneZiege *
The Cubs have never won a penant. Never have, never will. According to this updated hypothesis, Santa Claus does not exist.

Um, what?

As I understand it, “winning the pennant” means winning the National League or American League championship. The Cubs won the NL in 1906, 1907, 1908, 1910, 1918, 1929, 1932, 1935, 1938 and 1945.

If you mean that the Cubs have never won a World Championship (World Series), they did: in 1907 and 1908.

And if that seems like a long time to you, then pardon me if I’m not overly sympathetic, being a Anaheim Angels fan (No World Series wins. No World Series appearances.)

See, I get my lump of coal in October. Usually September, actually.

[sub]Sometimes in March, as a matter of fact.[/sub]

[dtilque]

*Originally posted by Anthracite *
I like coal.

Of course you do. Everyone on the SDMB knows Anthracite likes coal. The question is how you got this unusual fixation.

My hypothesis is that some time as a child, Santa gave you a lump of coal in your Christmas stocking. Instead of bursting into tears as most children would, you said “Neat, I got some coal! I wonder what kind it is? How many BTUs could I get by burning it?” And the rest is, shall we say, carbology (or whatever you call the study of coal).

[DavisMcDavis]

*Originally posted by Qasper *
A good friend of mine who’s an exchange student from Cameroun told me last week how utterly ridiculous we all are. To paraphrase his perspective: “I come from the poorest continent in the world, but you will never see a man sleep on our streets. If he is hungry, he will be fed. If he is homeless, he will be sheltered for the night. And yet, here you are in the richest country in the world with homeless wanderers loitering all over your public parks. Tell me how this makes sense, with all the ressources you could spare. It wouldn’t even be a sacrifice for you, and yet there they lay… Explain it to me, please.”
**

Hey that’s an easy one - we don’t our citizens to be detained against their will without their having committed a crime. Unless they present a danger to themselves or others, we cannot legally incarcerate the homeless against their will. It seems to be different in Cameroon:

Starting on July 17, on orders of the Douala urban council, security forces arrested 70 homeless and mentally disabled persons who habitually lived in the streets of the city, in order to prevent French President Jacque Chirac from seeing them during his visit to the country the following week. The 70 persons were kept in custody in a special ward of the La Quintinie Public Hospital until released on July 30. *from http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1999_hrp_report/cameroon.html *

It’s a bit disingenuous for your friend to suggest that they feed and shelter their homeless when it’s being done against their will, isn’t it?

Reading over that report, it looks like the human rights abuses going on in that country overshadow the fact that one might be able to avoid viewing a homeless person while walking down the street.

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

[Fed Ex truck pulls up outside DavisMcDavis’s house, delivers mysterious box]
[Dave opens box, finds enormous red knitted Christmas stocking bulging with candy and cool tiny toys, and a note saying, “Sorry this was late–I got tied up in traffic–Love, Santa”]

[insert WTG thumbs-up emoticon here]

[harriet]

To fill out cecil’s answer on the "how does he do it? " ( which i’ve always felt was a silly quesiton, anyway- I mean, he’s Santa, right?), my oldest son came up with this explanation: “12/25/00-The Santa Claus Theorem-dkaos Santa manages to
deliver present to all the good boys and girls by being everywhere at
once. Until he is observed directly, Santa Claus is neither there or not
there (there being in the vicinity of your xmas tree) until observed
directly. As such, he is simulatenously everywhere at once and
nowhere at all. And, once observed directly, he either fails to exist,
or exists in only one place, hence rendering him unable to deliver
presents to everyone. Hence, Santa exists until proven to exist or
proven not-to-exist. QED.”

[DavisMcDavis]

*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose *
**[Fed Ex truck pulls up outside DavisMcDavis’s house, delivers mysterious box]
[Dave opens box, finds enormous red knitted Christmas stocking bulging with candy and cool tiny toys, and a note saying, “Sorry this was late–I got tied up in traffic–Love, Santa”]
[insert WTG thumbs-up emoticon here]
**

Gee, thanks Santa! You rock!

[Irishman]

D. Suzanne said:

but I thought I might see if anybody wanted to bite, not on the question of whether Santa exists, and also not on an Ass, but instead on the question of whether belief in Santa is overall a force for the improvement or detriment of society and humanity.

I sense that this question is perhaps leading to a great debate. I didn´t set out to argue the point, but it is an assumption in my post that the truth is better than a lie to make people feel better. Perhaps not always, but I rather think so in this case.

samclem said:

Hypocrite! Next year, tell your mom you’re such a non-believer that you don’t need no stinkin’ presents.

It´s not that I don´t want presents. The presents just aren´t from some fictional overgrown elf. I get presents from my family members and friends - real people that care about me. And I get them gifts. It is an expression of caring and appreciation. And no, I don´t want to start a debate over “better” ways to express caring and appreciation. My family gets together and spends time and shares company. The gifts are a sentimental tradition, not the end-all-be-all. But we don´t need Santa to exchange presents.

el_mono said:

Santa Claus is the personification of giving and in my mind that ain’t a bad thing in the least. The greatest single gift that one human being can give to another is that of sharing their time. Our time is a precious thing and in choosing to spend it in the company of another we let them know just how special they are to us.
The greatest joy for me during the holiday season is getting together with family and friends, putting aside all of the countless “things” that must be done on a regular basis, and spending time. It isn’t always easy to do this during the remainder of the year. And so if we continue to set aside a particular season devoted to that simple pursuit once each year, then hooray, I say.

And I say we do not need “Santa” to express any of the above. Santa is a superfluous distraction to the real meaning of the season. Santa might be a way to demonstrate the meaning - a parable if you will. But in the end, it´s just a myth. Santa is not real as a person. As a concept, sure, but not as a person.

[D.Suzanne]

well, then!
It’s been a while since I checked up on the conversation here, and it’s all pretty good. As Qasper might have well said instead, Coca-cola adverts at least cemented the image we have of Santa Claus, regardless of the origin of said image, and I also have to say that Qasper’s story from his friend has importance despite significant rebuttal. His (her?) Camerounian (?) friend said:
“I come from the poorest continent in the world, but you will never see a man sleep on our streets. If he is hungry, he will be fed. If he is homeless, he will be sheltered for the night. And yet, here you are in the richest country in the world with homeless wanderers loitering all over your public parks. Tell me how this makes sense, with all the ressources you could spare. It wouldn’t even be a sacrifice for you, and yet there they lay… Explain it to me, please.”
Even if Cameroun (sp?) isn’t such a shining example, as DavisMcDavis alleges, that still doesn’t mean we don’t have something to explain, now does it? In other words, we cannot conclude from the fact that everywhere sucks that we don’t as well – one might hope that lowering the bar might stop at decency and dignity, but, as we all know, it does not. This is no kind of attack on DavisMcDavis, I am merely trying to suppliment the correct with the true.

But yes, this isn't Santa at work, whether with northern elves or swiss gnomes, but instead the legend of Saint Nicholas bent to the will of our society. Power only admits value insofar as value supports power (look for confirmation of this abstract idea in any action movie), and the vision of giving which we receive is a vision which is modified to serve the power at hand in the west -- blind Efficiency. I hope I don't sound too much like someone with one set of clothes who you might meet on a bus or at a burger king, and I promise I have some scholarly basis for all this which I am not going to bore you with, but it seems to me that many must find some resonance here.

But really; if our modern Santa is just a symptom, then what is the cause? I don't think this a capitalism/communism debate (i.e., pro- or anti-private property). Is this a socialism/libertarian debate, i.e., is the question whether we ought to provide for others, or whether we ought to provide for others _only insofar as_ we care to out of our own free will? It seems to me that what we really care about is other people, and the reason we support a liberal individualist uncaring Randian ethics of economic success is because the excessively large superstructure of our economic, social, and governmental involvement separates the classes (insofar as that is still a meaningful term), and destroys any meaningful connection between those who might be able to look after another and those who might benefit from being looked after. For what reason might it be that we stopped caring about people other than that we began to feel that economic productivity equals moral worth? And is that really a world which _any_ of us want to live in?

Now, I know the Irishman (who I hope will excuse the defininate article) was concerned about this becoming a Great Debate, which I feel I am pushing it towards in the above, but I think he felt this was moving towards such in the issue of whether lying as such was wrong, i.e., whether a deontological vs. consequentialist or intentional view of ethics holds true, rather than moving towards a Great Debate on the topic of socialism/libertarianism, which is what I am most intending it to be pushed towards. Regardless, I expect that my main impact on the reader will be the thought "damn, this guy talks a lot, and not very clearly either," so I don't much care _what_ kind of response the above will inspire -- that it should inspire much is more than I would ask, although I don't of course mean by this that those left uninspired by my ramblings are in some way deficient. But let me quote something from a source which seems to me appropriately (for this forum) countercultural, the _Pricipia Discordia_:

A Sermon on Ethics and Love

One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the Goddess and request her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female voice said YES?

"O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!"

WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON’T SOUND WELL.

"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible vision of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe."

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YO U WANT TO DO?

"But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it."

OH. WELL, THEN STOP.

At which moment She turned Herself into an aspirin commercial and left the Polyfather stranded alone with his species.

[Irishman]

Seeing as how the column made its annual return, I just thought I’d bring this back to the surface. Once again, check out my comments. (They’re the only important ones. ;))

Updated column link. (Mods want to fix the original?)
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/santaclaus.html

Nope, still no Santa Claus. Cecil is still wrong. (Wrong, in an ethical judgement way, not wrong in a factual basis way.)

[rombuu]

*Originally posted by FloChi *
**D Suzanne, I’m with you.

Santa always gives presents. Who has ever recieved coal in leiu of presents? It doesn’t matter what you do, if you pretend to be good at the end of the year, presents come your way. So it doesn’t even send out a moral lesson.

Santa? Bah! **

I got some coal and sticks in my stocking one year, along with a note that I should be nicer to my little brother.

I did get some presents that year too though. It was certainly a big kick in the rear to get a note from Santa letting you know you’ve not been a good kid all year though…

[Kat]

I’d like to say that I got 2 presents from Santa Claus this year. Hand-delivered. And yes, it really was Santa Claus, not my brother-in-law in a Santa suit. Just because my brother-in-law got paged 10 minutes before Santa showed up and came back 10 minutes after Santa left doesn’t mean a thing.

[AskNott]

As if there weren’t enough distractions…May I recommend the “Santa’s sleigh pulled by…Karibu?” thread in Staff Reports? (a crass self-serving sorta-link by the boulder-pocked AskNott)

[MarkGross]

*Originally posted by D. Suzanne *
**Even if Cameroun (sp?) isn’t such a shining example, as DavisMcDavis alleges, that still doesn’t mean we don’t have something to explain, now does it? …

…is the question whether we ought to provide for others, or whether we ought to provide for others only insofar as we care to out of our own free will?..

…For what reason might it be that we stopped caring about people other than that we began to feel that economic productivity equals moral worth? And is that really a world which any of us want to live in?**

I don’t feel that the presence of homeless people in a location is necessarily an indication that the non-homeless people in the area no longer care about people. As a matter of fact, it seems like a rather broad stretch. I realize that there are a great many homeless people who have been unable to overcome problems and obstacles in their lives, and would work hard to change their situation, given the opportunity. However, there are also a great many homeless people who are simply unwilling to take responsibilty for themselves, and wish to live on the charity of others. Unfortunatley, those in the latter category have caused a significant portion of the population to become rather jaded in terms of charity.

Images of homeless men smoking and drinking are familiar sights to many people. While I’m happy to help someone who is down on their luck, and actively trying to improve their life, I don’t want to give my money away to someone who will waste it on alcohol or tobacco. In terms of directly giving something to a homeless person in a one-on-one interaction, it is difficult to tell who is sincere, and who simply wants their next fix. As a result, I think many people prefer to give their money to charities, hoping that someone else will be able to make that decision, and help those who really need it. Add to that the valid safety concern of interacting with a stranger, and it is no surprise that homeless people are not invited into homes on a regular basis.

A few years ago, my wife and I were driving to pick up some fast food, and passed a homeless man with a “Will work for food” sign. We picked up some sandwiches and fries for him, along with a drink, and stopped on the way back to give it to him. When he realized what we had given him, he threw it at our car and said something to the effect of, “I don’t want food, you idiot, I want money!”. We have some friends who experienced almost the exact same scenario. After that, I would just rather send my donations to someone else, in the hope that they would have a better sense of what to do with it.

In this light, I think any debate about socialism/libertarianism is premature until clarifiactions have been made regarding the differences between theory and practice. No matter what beliefs you subscribe to, you can’t help someone who does not want to be helped.

As for Cecil’s column, I think it was right on the mark. Go Santa!

Mark Gross