# Is there a schism forming among Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965 "2004-10-13T05:25:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/41 "2004-10-14T16:39:12Z")
I think that the schism is overrated- I hardly think it will be permanent. The two political parties have always been ungainly coalitions of interests both temporary and long term. Right now, we all just seem to be overly generalizing our “side” to the 50% of the population that align with us on the Republican/Democratic divide. There is no particular reason why pro-labor policies have to line up with socially liberal policies rather than socially conservative views. It’s just that starting in the early 90’s party discipline (especially within the GOP, but later spreading to the Dems once they lost power) began to become more ironclad, more typical of say a parliamentary party rather than what was historically the case. The combination of our system of elections with the idea that party members should follow the national party line rather than representing their immediate constituents in what those constituents would consider the appropriately democratic/republican way has left the minority in any district or area feeling particularly disenfranchised. At some point, perhaps with the (hopefully) imminent fall of DeLay party discipline will break down on both sides of the aisle and representatives will break party lines more. (Let’s face it, chances are a New York Republican probably has a hell of a lot more in common with a Connecticut Democrat than either does to a Texan or Montanan of the same party affiliation.) Hopefully congressional leadership will also stop leaving the minority party out in the cold. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/42 "2004-10-15T04:03:10Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > **Starving Artist** , that was an excellently written and intriguing post – remarkably balanced and presenting an interesting and in some ways valid (IMO) point of view. > > But I would really like to have more detail on what you see as the negatives resulting from liberal activism. And I say that not to cast aspersions on them when you present them, but to see whether we have some grounds for agreement or not. Thanks **Polycarp**. I appreciate the compliments. Perhaps I should compose all my posts as though I were talking to **Zoe** , who I was answering at the time. She seems to bring out the best in me. And I always know she’ll try to take what I say the way I mean it. As to your request, I’ll have to take a pass for now as time is short. But if you’d like post some of your observations in the meantime, I’d be very interested in hearing them. Thanks again for the kind words. Regards. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/43 "2004-10-15T05:16:11Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > No, but that would be because they experienced it, and adjusted to it, as it happened. Where would you most notice the changes wrought by time in someone you’ve known a long while? Would you notice it most in your wife of thirty years, or in a former girlfriend you hadn’t seen in thirty years? But this has nothing to do with “liberalism” or “conservatism,” or else you would have to conclude that everyone in the history of the world has been more conservative than everyone who came after them. “Conservatism” is meaningful only in the context of the issues of the time; one of your imaginary time travellers shocked by 2004 society might actually have been fairly liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/44 "2004-10-15T06:18:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But this has nothing to do with “liberalism” or “conservatism,” or else you would have to conclude that everyone in the history of the world has been more conservative than everyone who came after them. “Conservatism” is meaningful only in the context of the issues of the time; . This is true, but I don’t believe it follows that everyone in the history of the world who came before would have to more conservative than those who followed. The question of whether the world had become more liberal or conservative to the imaginary time traveller would depend upon the direction his/her world had taken in the time since. If the world had become markedly more conservative since the time traveller’s time, he/she would be surprised at the difference between now and the time they came from; if the world has become more liberal, they would also be surprised (or in my opinion, shocked) to see what the world has become since their time. > [@RickJay](#): > > …one of your imaginary time travellers shocked by 2004 society might actually have been fairly liberal. Indeed they might have been, but then there would be the question of whether they thought it had gone too far…or not far enough. But natually a socially and/or philosophically liberal person from that day and age would be less alarmed at the liberal changes that have occurred since their time. But such people were much less in evidence in those days than they are now. I still maintain that the typical, average housewife or businessman from fifty years would be shocked at the results of liberal influence in this country over the last fifty years. As I’ve said, I’m conflicted myself as to whether or not this liberal influence has ultimately been for the best, but its impact on daily life in this country over the last fifty years is undeniable…and that was what I was trying to convey to **Zoe** in response to her question as to why I thought the country had become more liberal, given that it appears to be the opposite to her. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/45 "2004-10-15T14:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*… The Hillbillies vs. the Advanced Minds … > … There are an ample number of plutocratic Hillbillies… > … I live in Tennessee, and see them daily … The most disgusting term I know of is “Christian Businessman”. Materialism & the messge of Xianity just do not mix. Nevertheless, Tennessee is overrun with these Gom…I mean “fellows” … \* You guys spew malice at poor and working class whites, and then you wonder why they don’t vote for your candidates. Here’s a clue. Don’t use words like “hillbilly,” “redneck,” “white trash” or “trailer trash” if you wouldn’t use the words “nigger,” “kike,” or “spic” in the same context. Really, guys, if you want us to support you, it would be a good idea to at least try to cover up the contempt you feel for us. It would be even better if you got rid of it completely and tried to understand that being white does not automatically confer power and privilege, but I’m not going to hope for a miracle here. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/46 "2004-10-15T14:59:57Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You guys spew malice at poor and working class whites, and then you wonder why they don’t vote for your candidates. Here’s a clue. Don’t use words like “hillbilly,” “redneck,” “white trash” or “trailer trash” if you wouldn’t use the words “nigger,” “kike,” or “spic” in the same context. > > Really, guys, if you want us to support you, it would be a good idea to at least try to cover up the contempt you feel for us. It would be even better if you got rid of it completely and tried to understand that being white does not automatically confer power and privilege, but I’m not going to hope for a miracle here. I spew venom at idiots who own multimillion dollar homes, & run businesses here, but won’t support funding education. I spew venom at idiots who lie, cheat & steal during the week, & go all pious on Sunday. I spew venom at idiots who censor the local library “for the childrens’ sake.” Whilst the reading skills of those kids would be regarded as feeble in a colony of cherrystone clams. Keep your yap shut, until you learn about who and what you are defending. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/47 "2004-10-15T15:35:30Z")
Bring the schism on, if thats what it takes. That oh-so-peaceful era some people are talking about back in the 50’s and 60’s, what you don’t realize or don’t think about is it was for WHITE people only. Immigrants like myself or born-in-America like my SO, it didn’t matter. You certainly weren’t going to have that sweet little life with the sock hops and the cute little dresses. Oh no, to the back of the bus for you. Chinese, work on the railroads. I don’t know what Indians were doing but no doubt it was some sort of menial labor. Let liberalism grow stronger. The conservative side has always tried to hold me back, as an immigrant, and as a woman. If it hadn’t been the the liberal side I would still be in the back of the bus. I’m not saying I am all that liberal…I believe I’m pretty conservative economically and liberal in so-called “human issues”. But extremists are the ones who begin the change. Whether or not that can be changed remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/48 "2004-11-04T18:44:38Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > But to get back to your question, I think if you brought the average housewife or business man from the fifties or early sixties into this day and age they would be absolutely horrified at what day-to-day life in this country has become. Back then women wore dresses (and sometimes even hats) when out in public, and most men wore suits or slacks and a jacket when out in public. Television was clean and wholesome, at least compared with today, and I can remember a time when if you said something like the word “fuck” in front of a girl, you were thought of as a low-life scuzzbug and she wouldn’t have anything to do with you from that point on. Criminals rarely had a record of twenty five arrests in ten years but were still allowed out on the streets. Parents had a great deal of input (if they chose to) into what their children were taught at school. People were much more mannerly and civilized in their day-to-day comings and goings, and the possiblity of being a victim of crime was very much less on people’s minds. You know _absolutely nothing_ about social history except what you see on TVLand reruns of _The Donna Reed Show_. Y’know what you should do? Go to the library and get out microfilm copies of local (or national) newspapers from the 1950s, and see how much “better and cleaner and nicer” life was back then. I think you’ll be in for a surprise. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/49 "2004-11-04T18:53:48Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > They must be pretty clever hillbillies if they are the ones with all the dough. Indeed! They are the Beverly Hills-billies. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/50 "2004-11-04T19:50:21Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Interesting, especially since we’ve both been around for a while to watch the process. My take is just the opposite – that the conservative contingent has grown in the last forty or fifty years. I wonder which is right. **Zoe** , think of this: What was the margin of victory, in terms of state wins, for Nixon or Reagan, and what was it last Tuesday? Has the conservative movement really grown? I don’t see it. I’m with Pat Buchanan on this: The Conservative Movement is Dying (Perhaps he meant that literally, but that’s another story). Election irregularities aside, the right wing was more successful at rallying their base than the left. And really, is it so surprising? What did Kerry ever do or say to rally the left-of-what we now call center in the US? I think it’s all about balance. There wasn’t a sufficient left rally to fight the right rally. Blame whoever - or flame me for saying so - just MHO. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/51 "2004-11-04T21:29:09Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Nowadays, everyone runs around in the most casual of clothing. It’s nothing to see a sweet, wholesome-looking girl sitting in a convertible at a stoplight tapping her steering wheel and mouthing the most filthy words imaginable and thinking nothing of it. Anyone can get on the internet and find trainloads of pornography at the click of a mouse. What’s wrong with any of that? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/52 "2004-11-04T22:32:55Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > You know _absolutely nothing_ about social history except what you see on TVLand reruns of _The Donna Reed Show_. > > Y’know what you should do? Go to the library and get out microfilm copies of local (or national) newspapers from the 1950s, and see how much “better and cleaner and nicer” life was back then. I think you’ll be in for a surprise. You know what you should do? First, get down off your high-horse. Then, live during those times like I did so you could speak from a base of experience and first-hand knowledge like I do, instead of from your anti-conservative bigotry. I know, given your life history, that you are highly unlikely to appreciate a more conservative time in this country. And I acknowledge that there were things that existed during that time that were bad (although they weren’t caused by that time, as is commonly imagined…rather they were a result of hundreds of years of societal evolution), and I’ve praised the fact they are much better now. But that doesn’t mean we need to throw out the baby with the bath water in an effort to correct them, which is typical of liberal activism and has resulted in many of the bad or harmful qualities that exist in society today. I remember when teachers’ top ten lists of problems started with talking in class, followed by running in the halls, followed by chewing gum in class. Now metal detectors are needed just in order to enter the building. Regards. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/53 "2004-11-04T22:38:40Z")
Sorry, **Eve** , my own knee jerked just then. Please ignore the part about you being on a high-horse. That was schmuckery of my own at work. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mirasawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mirasawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mirasawa)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/54 "2004-11-04T23:16:57Z")
I don’t think there is more of a schism, especially if we look at the issues which divided the people in the past: slavery, civil rights, WWI, the USSR, Mexican War, Whiskey Rebellion, Reconstruction, the Revolution, Vietnam, British impressing our sailors, etc. What are we divided on today? Health care is too expensive. Taxes are too low or high. The Iraq “war” where an astounding 1000 soldiers have died. STEM CELL RESEARCH for GOD’S SAKE!!! What’s wrong with a schism anyways? If everyone is thinking the same way, then someone isn’t thinking at all. I suspect the real moaning about schism is the recent rise of the red media. Before Fox, internet, and talk radio, the Big Three, the AP, and the NY Times were practically the only source for news in America. Now that conservatives are visible to everyone, suddenly there’s a “schism” that must be ended. In other words, we should go back to light blue and blue media only. \_ ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/55 "2004-11-05T00:58:30Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Sorry, **Eve** , my own knee jerked just then. Please ignore the part about you being on a high-horse. That was schmuckery of my own at work. 😛 Actually, me being on a high horse was the only part of your post I agreed with! I have the highest horse you have _ever_ seen. (I’m an old crock, too, I also remember those times, and they weren’t all that great) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/56 "2004-11-05T02:03:21Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I remember when teachers’ top ten lists of problems started with talking in class, followed by running in the halls, followed by chewing gum in class. If you’re referring to [this](http://www.snopes.com/language/document/school.htm), you might want to reevaluate your memories. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/57 "2004-11-05T03:17:57Z")
Interesting, but I wonder if the author’s reference to the list he mentions is the only one that ever existed. I would think that various surveys were conducted on a fairly regular basis in order to anticipate expenditures and discipline and punishment guidelines. But I can tell you from first hand experience that the classroom experience of the fifties and sixties was, very much for the most part, as I described. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/58 "2004-11-05T03:44:38Z")
> [@Mirasawa](#): > > What are we divided on today? . . . The Iraq “war” where an astounding 1000 soldiers have died. I think what we’re really divided over is not the 1,000+ dead American soldiers but the 100,000+ dead Iraqi civilians. Their lives are not worth any less than ours, are they? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/59 "2004-11-05T04:18:53Z")
That’s right. I was only prior to the much worse figure of 100,000 coming out that the 1,000 soldiers were dividing us. Now, apparently, they’re insignificant because their use as a weapon against the war effort pales in comparison with the civilian casualties. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965/60 "2004-11-05T04:20:28Z")
Damn…make that “_It_ was only prior…etc” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-schism-forming-among-americans/268965.md?page=4)