# Is there a short non-racist substitute for "Indian giver" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 5, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078 "2013-09-05T15:22:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/41 "2013-09-05T22:27:37Z")
> [@davekhps](#): > > Ummm, how is it racist? Judging by Wikipedia, the origin of the phrase appears to denote an actual Native American custom. > [@fluiddruid](#): > > How does that prove it is racist? Don’t get me wrong, I think it is, but you could Google practically anything with racist and get results. That’s not evidence of anything. As has been said, while the original meaning reflected an actual Native American custom (reciprocal gift giving), the present one (taking a gift back) does not. In my experience, it is usually used in an insulting manner (or at least chidingly), and Merriam Webster says it is “sometimes offensive.” In either sense, it denotes someone who is not a true gift-giver. Here’s [Cecil on the subject.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/853/whats-the-origin-of-the-expression-indian-giver) As Cecil notes, “Indian” is sometimes used to indicate a false or unreliable version of something. > [@](#): > > “Indian” was once used by the white man as an all-purpose adjective signifying “bogus” or “false,” owing to the supposedly low morals of the red man. Thus you had “Indian summer,” false summer late in the year; “Indian corn” and “Indian tea,” cheap substitutes for products the original colonists had known back in England; and “Indian giver,” someone who gives you something and then takes it back. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/42 "2013-09-05T22:34:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As Cecil notes, “Indian” is sometimes used to indicate a false or unreliable version of something. “Dutch” is used the same way (a “Dutch uncle” isn’t your uncle, “Dutch courage” isn’t real courage, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/43 "2013-09-05T22:46:36Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > “Dutch” is used the same way (a “Dutch uncle” isn’t your uncle, “Dutch courage” isn’t real courage, etc.) Also “Dutch treat” (no treat at all), and “Dutch auction” (starting with a high price and reducing it until a buyer is found). ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/44 "2013-09-05T23:09:36Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Also “Dutch treat” (no treat at all), and “Dutch auction” (starting with a high price and reducing it until a buyer is found). The French get a slightly different treatment in terms of English phrases: “French postcard,” “French letter,” “the French disease” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/45 "2013-09-05T23:11:36Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > “Dutch auction” (starting with a high price and reducing it until a buyer is found). One step too far. 🙂 (1) A Dutch auction is a real auction, unlike Dutch treats, Dutch uncles, or Dutch courage. (2) Dutch auctions actually originated in the Netherlands, as a way to sell huge lots of fresh flowers as quickly as possible. [Cite.](http://tuecontheoryofnetworks.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/the-origin-of-the-dutch-auction/) [A more detailed cite (.pdf)](http://archive.nyu.edu/bitstream/2451/14208/1/IS-96-24.pdf) [The actually Dutch Dutch-auction flower market.](http://www.floraholland.com/en/) 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/46 "2013-09-05T23:19:20Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > One step too far. 🙂 (1) A Dutch auction is a real auction, unlike Dutch treats, Dutch uncles, or Dutch courage. (2) Dutch auctions actually originated in the Netherlands, as a way to sell huge lots of fresh flowers as quickly as possible. [Cite.](http://tuecontheoryofnetworks.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/the-origin-of-the-dutch-auction/) [A more detailed cite (.pdf)](http://archive.nyu.edu/bitstream/2451/14208/1/IS-96-24.pdf) [The actually Dutch Dutch-auction flower market.](http://www.floraholland.com/en/) 😛 Thanks. I did not know that. ---
**Author:** ![Flywheel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Flywheel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flywheel)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/47 "2013-09-06T01:29:43Z")
Whereas “Chinese” indicates confusion or incomprehensibility: “Chinese whispers,” “Chinese puzzle,” “Chinese fire drill”… ---
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/48 "2013-09-06T03:01:57Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > “Dutch” is used the same way (a “Dutch uncle” isn’t your uncle, “Dutch courage” isn’t real courage, etc.) You forgot “dutch cocoa” which is really bovine droppings that have been baked and treated (to remove the offensive smell). j/k I know it’s real cocoa that’s been processed a certain way that modifies its color and flavor. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/49 "2013-09-06T04:40:11Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Yes. Because your example is the exact same as GusNSpots. :rolleyes: Well, sorta. he he he !! What I said was a warning to those that get in my face for that stuff. Of course if you think you are big nuff, have at it. LOL As I really think you talking about it being a strawman statement thing, I can see you thinking that too. I am not too fond of guys beating women but I have done nothing about it on occasion. ( 1 ) They were on a power boat & I was on a sail boat so there was no chance to get there & we had no idea of where they were going. But bunch your ( generic ) panties all you want. I don’t mind… 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/50 "2013-09-06T04:59:10Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Yeah. I remember all that foorah (please pardon my strong language) when that guy used the word “niggardly” in its proper context. [side-track] May have actually happened. My father (white) taught at an all-or-mostly black high school in Detroit (in the 1930’s, I think). He told the story of one white teacher who used the word “niggardly”, perhaps to a student. Some kid went home and said something like “the teacher called us a bunch of niggers!”; word spread around the hood, and near race riot ensued. [/side-track] As for Indian summers: That’s what you call Native Americans who can do basic arithmetic. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/51 "2013-09-06T06:02:43Z")
Would ‘remorseful giver’ serve as a race-neutral substitute? People already know what a remorseful buyer is. ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/52 "2013-09-06T07:39:16Z")
De-gifter, un-giver? ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/53 "2013-09-06T07:44:38Z")
This discussion is interesting to me because there is no equivalent expression or word in French, so if you want to make that point, in particular to a kid, we use this saying: “donner c’est donner, reprendre c’est voler” (giving is giving, taking back is stealing) ---
**Author:** ![Jaguars](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaguars/32/5879_2.png) [@Jaguars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaguars)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/54 "2013-09-06T12:47:44Z")
(Pronounced ‘Longeycricketball’) Refers to the thing given not the giver. This is used in my family (And likely nowhere else). Supposedly from an interview with former New Zealand Prime Minister David Lange, who told the story about giving his father a cricket ball on his birthday, despite Pa never playing the game and David being on the school team. I first learned this term when my 7 year old brother gave my dad a small rubber whale as a birthday gift, which was known forever after by that name. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/55 "2013-09-06T13:14:09Z")
Has anyone proffered ‘asshole’, yet? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/56 "2013-09-06T13:26:10Z")
Here’s the script to use: “Hey, you know that episode of _Seinfeld_ where Jerry’s hot for the Native American girl, and keeps winding up almost offending her accidentally with his racial insensitivity? I need my lawnmower back.” ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/57 "2013-09-06T13:26:36Z")
Not to mention the Dutch Oven. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/58 "2013-09-06T13:30:47Z")
_Boomerang giver_. Or, I’ll throw it out one more time because I think it got buried: _Leno_. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/59 "2013-09-07T15:23:55Z")
> [@BleizDu](#): > > This discussion is interesting to me because there is no equivalent expression or word in French, so if you want to make that point, in particular to a kid, we use this saying: > “donner c’est donner, reprendre c’est voler” > (giving is giving, taking back is stealing) Exactly. Indian or not, once you actually GIVE something, you cede all title to it, including the right to take it back, tell the guy how to dispose of it, etc. No more rights than if the guy went out and bought the lawnmower in the store on his own. > [@Jaguars](#): > > (Pronounced ‘Longeycricketball’) Refers to the thing given not the giver. This is used in my family (And likely nowhere else). Supposedly from an interview with former New Zealand Prime Minister David Lange, who told the story about giving his father a cricket ball on his birthday, despite Pa never playing the game and David being on the school team. > > I first learned this term when my 7 year old brother gave my dad a small rubber whale as a birthday gift, which was known forever after by that name. Careful. There are two ways to look at this - -a 7yo who thinks he would truly like to have this sort of toy to play with, so infers that dad would feel the same way. -a teenager who plays cricket, knows dad never touches the stuff, and buys a ball for himself as “a gift for dad”. When it was just me, my brother, and my dad, we never really learned about social niceties like buying a gift for someone. After all, our allowance in those days at that age was about a quarter a week. My dad wasn’t big on social interaction pretences. The first time we had to buy a gift for our stepmother, we bought her a jar of candy - not because we expected to eat it ourselves, but because we knew that was what we would have liked, so ergo, so should she. I still remember her screaming at us and lobbing the jar across the kitchen so it rolled up to our feet; she said “you know I can’t eat candy!” Oddly enough, no we did not, her medical history and dietary restrictions had never come up in front of a bunch of 6 or 7 year olds… but that set the tone for years to come and to this day I absolutely hate buying gifts. I wonder how your brother feels? ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/60 "2013-09-07T16:06:08Z")
Disemborrow. Ummm, yeah. We’re just going to have to disemborrow that stapler, ummmkay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078.md?page=4)