# Is there a short non-racist substitute for "Indian giver" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 5, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078 "2013-09-05T15:22:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/61 "2013-09-07T17:32:33Z")
> [@bup](#): > > _Boomerang giver_. This sounds good. It’s suggestive of what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Lazlo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lazlo/32/9678_2.png) [@Lazlo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazlo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/62 "2013-09-08T19:52:47Z")
Taker backer, according to Rugrats. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/63 "2013-09-08T20:24:31Z")
> [@bup](#): > > _Boomerang giver_. > > Or, I’ll throw it out one more time because I think it got buried: > > _Leno_. I really like Leno as the substitute for Indian giver. It has everything you need in an epithet. It’s short, easy to remember, just vague enough that it doesn’t have to be a direct reference to something, but a direct enough reference that it’s funny. Plus it’s easy to say, which things like ungifter or take backer aren’t. I’m going to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/64 "2013-09-08T20:46:37Z")
> [@lost4life](#): > > How about “Welch” 😉 Well, the original version was “Welsh,” and that just opens up a whole new can of worms. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/65 "2013-09-08T21:43:02Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Well, the original version was “Welsh,” and that just opens up a whole new can of worms. Thus the knowing wink. 😛 Take-backer suffices. And that’s the way it will be. No Take-backs! ---
**Author:** ![Time\_Shift](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Time\_Shift](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Time_Shift)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/66 "2013-09-10T12:26:43Z")
As someone else said, the proper term is renege. It means to go back on a promise. However, the problem is that it’s a term that could easily be misunderstood, or pronounced incorrectly. Otherwise, I like what someone else said. I like the term Leno giver. ---
**Author:** ![HLHJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9e8a1a/32.png) [@HLHJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HLHJ)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/67 "2013-09-10T15:49:46Z")
There is a native southern Alberta story about boomerang giving. There are lots of stories around there\* about a guy I’ve heard called Coyote or Iktomi, where he breaks every social rule in the book; makes long boring speeches, tries unsucessfully to cheat on his wife, sits on buffalo skulls, etc… He isn’t evil, but is so bad at identifying appropriate behaviour that three-year-olds laugh and criticize (which is part of the fun). One day, Coyote was strolling around in the foothills, wearing a fine new cloak, when he met Raven. “Hello, Raven! Don’t you think I look good in this cloak? Isn’t it pretty? Sets off my handsome looks perfectly, wouldn’t you say?” “It is a lovely cloak” said Raven “I don’t know when I’ve seen a finer one. It really is beautiful – the colours, the pattern – so artistic, so well-made”. “Oh” said Coyote, pleased, “if you like it that much, you can have it!” Raven was absolutely delighted, and most grateful to Coyote. Coyote left him there, still admiring it, and set off eastwards on his way again. At first Coyote felt very proud of his generosity; but by and by he remembered how lovely the cloak was, and he started to regret his decision. Finally he turned and ran back to Raven, and asked for the cloak back. Raven gave it back, but he wasn’t very happy about it, and after Coyote had left he sat and brooded and got really angry. “He really is insufferable” said Raven “It’s time someone taught Coyote a lesson”; and he picked up the biggest rock he could find and flew after Coyote. He overtook him quite easily, because Coyote was stopping to look at his own reflection in every slough. Then Raven dropped the rock from a great height, and it hit and shattered, pinning Coyote to the ground. “Ai!” said Coyote “My cloak! My beautiful cloak will be ruined!”. He wasn’t hurt, but the only way he could get out was to wiggle free, leaving the cloak under the rock. Raven flew off, well-satisfied. I don’t know what happened to that cloak, but as for the rock, you can still [see it today](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rock_%28glacial_erratic%29). So there is definitely a difference between reciprocal giving (“I bake a cake for them every year, and they’ve never so much as sent us a Christmas card!”) and boomerang giving, and the latter is condemned in a native morality tale (which I think is pretty old, although I only really remember the broad plot outline, and everything else should not be blamed on anyone but me). - \*Warning: your local myths and characters may vary, even if they have the same names. Cultures are like that, don’t blame me. - ---
**Author:** ![HLHJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9e8a1a/32.png) [@HLHJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HLHJ)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/68 "2013-09-10T16:26:15Z")
A few other versions: [http://suite101.com/a/the-legend-of-napi-and-the-rock-a36329](http://suite101.com/a/the-legend-of-napi-and-the-rock-a36329) > **[MAY: “Coyote, Iktome, and the Rock.”](https://twotwitchatale.wordpress.com/coyote-iktome-and-the-rock-2/)** > > “Coyote, Iktome, and the Rock.” White River Sioux On a warm day, Coyote and Iktome, (Spider man),  are hiking along and see a big beautiful rock with moss veins. Coyote decides to give his Indian b… [http://home.online.no/~arnfin/native/lore/leg086.htm](http://home.online.no/~arnfin/native/lore/leg086.htm) > **[Coyote and the Rolling Rock](http://nativemyths.blogspot.com/2008/01/coyote-and-rolling-rock.html)** > > One spring day Coyote and Fox were out for a walk, and when they came to a big smooth rock, Coyote threw his blanket over it and they sat do... …all much more similar to one another than the version I remember, so it may well be that my memory is at fault. The oldest written version I’ve found dates from before 1892: [Blackfoot Lodge Tales: The Story of a Prairie People by George Bird Grinnell - Free Ebook](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11547) (section “The Rock”). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/69 "2013-09-10T19:23:03Z")
Awesome, HLHJ–love the story! Folks who don’t see why the term is racist need to read the story and think about how it illuminates the concept. Do you think the Blackfoot call Coyote in that story an Us-giver? ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/70 "2013-09-11T04:02:52Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > “Dutch” is used the same way (a “Dutch uncle” isn’t your uncle, “Dutch courage” isn’t real courage, etc.) In Taiwan, “Athletes foot” (the fungal infection) is called “Hong Kong Foot”. In Hong Kong is called “Singapore Foot”. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/71 "2013-09-11T14:59:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Awesome, HLHJ–love the story! Folks who don’t see why the term is racist need to read the story and think about how it illuminates the concept. Do you think the Blackfoot call Coyote in that story an Us-giver? Nope, they probably say Coyote acts “mighty white.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/72 "2013-09-11T15:40:43Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As has been said, while the original meaning reflected an actual Native American custom (reciprocal gift giving), the present one (taking a gift back) does not. In my experience, it is usually used in an insulting manner (or at least chidingly), and Merriam Webster says it is “sometimes offensive.” In either sense, it denotes someone who is not a true gift-giver. > > Here’s [Cecil on the subject.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/853/whats-the-origin-of-the-expression-indian-giver) > > As Cecil notes, “Indian” is sometimes used to indicate a false or unreliable version of something. I think Cecil went too far with “Indian corn”. Originally, “corn” just meant the local staple cereal. It is easy to see why Europeans would call maize “Indian corn” - not that it is “false” corn, but that it is simply the local corn grown by Indians. ---
**Author:** ![Todd\_Rizzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/41988e/32.png) [@Todd\_Rizzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todd_Rizzo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/73 "2015-05-15T01:14:53Z")
Since it is a phrase or terminology using a compound word, and only the prefix of that word is considered distasteful, then only the prefix needs the adjustment. Suit to taste with your favorite non-pejorative. The more obvious the context, the better. For example: “ungrateful giver”. ---
**Author:** ![Todd\_Rizzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/41988e/32.png) [@Todd\_Rizzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todd_Rizzo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/74 "2015-05-15T01:18:46Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > In Taiwan, “Athletes foot” (the fungal infection) is called “Hong Kong Foot”. In Hong Kong is called “Singapore Foot”. Yes. In the united stated, Brasil is spelled Brazil, and football is called soccer. When in Rome… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Todd\_Rizzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/41988e/32.png) [@Todd\_Rizzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todd_Rizzo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/75 "2015-05-15T01:24:12Z")
There are no ideal words. All words are semantics. There are simply good times and places to use certain words and terms… and bad times and places to use them as well. It all depends on the common subjectivity of the cultural region and the vocabulary and interpretation of the individuals engaged in conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/76 "2015-05-15T04:17:25Z")
Okay, here’s another try at making up a new term: a selfie gifter. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/77 "2015-05-15T05:35:51Z")
How about re-purposing the phrase “repo man” for this? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/78 "2015-05-15T12:37:53Z")
I know this is a zombie, but since \*\*bup \*\*is still around … I’d like him to explain what \*Leno \*means in this context. I know there’s a fading talk show host by that name, but that’s all I know about him. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/79 "2015-05-15T15:09:52Z")
But you got what I meant by _Andrew Jackson giver_, right? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078/80 "2015-05-15T15:30:18Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I’d like him to explain what \*Leno \*means in this context. I know there’s a fading talk show host by that name, but that’s all I know about him. I assume that it refers to the fact that Jay Leno turned over his role as host of the _Tonight Show_ to Conan O’Brian in 2009, then controversially returned as host after only a few months when Conan’s ratings were disappointing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-short-non-racist-substitute-for-indian-giver/668078.md?page=5)