# Is there a sort of "nerdy misogyny"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 31, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810 "2009-10-31T03:23:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/61 "2009-11-02T20:36:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Finding pictures of scantily clad women sexy is a normal trait for heterosexual males; she thinks that is sexist. It seems to me that she was a little more specific: > [@](#): > > If you are and your friends are sitting around your cubicle gawking at a Maxim spread of the girls from Battlestar Galactica in bikinis going on and on about how you would like to “tap that ass” and so on and annoying your female coworkers (and probably your mature male coworkers as well), that is considered sexist and misogynyst behavior. But I confess that I don’t really agree. This behaviour is _annoying_, but it’s not necessarily sexist. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/62 "2009-11-02T20:38:05Z")
I’m not sure the problem is that white American nerds have any sort of special sexist leanings that don’t exist in other personality types or subcultures, but that some people \*expect \*them to be more sympathetic towards anyone who’s oppressed (women, racial minorities) because of their own life experiences e.g. being bullied. But expecting people to be more sympathetic to underdogs because they themselves have been victimized has never been a good bet, IME. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/63 "2009-11-02T20:48:07Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > When I present this idea (which may not even be remotely new), I’m not saying that this type of misogyny is the most dangerous, most common, or most severe. Not even close. I think that nerds, if misogynistic, are less likely to actually, say, beat women than other types of misogynists (since nerds tend to be pretty non-violent folk). > > But it seems to me that some nerds have a sort of mild misogyny that grows out of their own inability to get laid and inability to understand women. Many nerds are on the “cannot understand people” side of the wall, and they just can’t relate to women or have a conversation with women, because they just don’t understand people the way they understand computers. > > So they view women as irrational, mysterious beings that are just beyond their grasp. And yet they act as though “woman want this” or “women want that” when, in reality, women just want somebody who is conversational and able to work solidly with people. > > I realize that tons of people self-identify as nerds and don’t have any serious lack of people skills. There are probably hundreds of such people who use this board and might read this post. But my experience is that the above profile applies to a non-negligible quantity of nerds. I’m curious whether others have spotted this brand of misogyny and if they agree with me. Misgyny means hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, so it doesn’t look like “view(ing) women as irrational, mysterious beings that are just beyond their grasp” them qualifies. And this is a generalization: > [@](#): > > women just want somebody who is conversational and able to work solidly with people. Women like all people have many desires in who they want to interact with. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/64 "2009-11-02T20:49:12Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > It seems to me that she was a little more specific: But what is the gender relevant feature of that little hypothetical? Male heterosexuality. Males finding pictures of women attractive. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/65 "2009-11-02T21:06:19Z")
I love women. I love pictures of naked women. I never knew I was a misogynist. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/66 "2009-11-02T22:09:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Finding pictures of scantily clad women sexy is a normal trait for heterosexual males; she thinks that is sexist. **msmith537** is a guy, you know. And his opinions regarding “nerds” are a matter of public record. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/67 "2009-11-02T22:24:13Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > **msmith537** is a guy, you know. And? It’s still calling hetero males sexist for being born hetero. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/68 "2009-11-03T05:47:22Z")
I was only correcting you calling him “she”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/69 "2009-11-03T05:48:25Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I was only correcting you calling him “she”. OK. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/70 "2009-11-03T06:00:13Z")
Isn’t there a fallacy where a person starts with a premise and accepts data that supports this premise but ignores data that is contrary to it? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/71 "2009-11-03T06:19:29Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Are you trying to be the only bee in her bonnet? It’s a simple message; I even left a few things out. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/72 "2009-11-03T06:24:53Z")
I play role playing games which is an admittedly nerdy hobby. For the most part I wouldn’t say that my fellow gamers were misogynistic but there were a lot of them that seemed to have a lot of problems interacting with women. Strangely enough I suspect that they also had a problem interacting with other males outside of the hobby. When I was president of a local gaming club (how nerdy is that?) we set up events and invited the general public (ie. the public who came to our game store) to participate. On one such occasion a couple showed up to one of our game days to play some Dungeons and Dragons. Two hours into the game one of our regular players would address the new woman by her name but would constantly refer to her boyfriend as “you,” “hey,” or “dude” even after being reminded of his name several times. I thought this was rather rude on his part and I said “You can remember her name but you can’t remember his?” His reply: “That’s because she’s a chick.” Maybe some of you don’t think he was being rude in the least and some of you might think I exacerbated the situation by calling him out on it. I think his behavior was rude but I don’t think it was misogynistic. In a slightly more misogynistic vein I have seen gamers assume that a woman doesn’t know the rules to the game, can’t really do math, and needs a male to help them with gaming in general. There’s sometimes an assumption that they’re only there because their boyfriend’s playing or something like that. Sometimes it’s true. On the reverse side I’ve seen women milk it for all it’s worth and a sort of queen bee mentality manifests itself but I’ve seen that in non-nerd groups and it’s probably fodder for another thread. Nerds really aren’t any better or worse than anyone else. I dropped out of playing Warhammer 40k because the people I hooked up with in my area couldn’t stop making ignorant and offensive comments about Muslims and Arabs. I dropped out of a D&D group when one member referred to his “friend” as a nigger when he wasn’t in earshot. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/73 "2009-11-03T07:44:43Z")
One of the things I’ve seen is that there seems to be more scrutiny for female nerds. I can just go in and start talking to a few nerdy types, and I’m immediately accepted. When my female friends do this, they seem to have to prove they actually know something about whatever nerd culture they are trying to be a part of. But I only see this with attractive girls. I’m not so sure it is so much misogyny as it is a prejudice: people are assumed to be either physically attractive or intelligent, but not both. There is also a small subtype of nerd that seem to view women not as people, but as objects of sexual desire. This is, unfortunately, common amongst all men, but these guys’ approach is different. Rather than go out and meet people and learn through experience, they appeal to books that supposedly teach the “secret” to getting women to have sex with them. These books go out of their way to explain that they aren’t about building a relationship, but “scoring” with as many women as possible. And these guys go about learning as much about these books as they do about their other fields of interest. They wind up with books like Speed Seduction that teach you to “program” women into being attracted to you. And I’ve heard them say stuff like, “I used to respect women until I found out how easy it is to get them to have sex with me.” Yuck. I also note that, despite Justin’s protestations to the contrary, nerds often seem to have crushes on fictional characters. It’s especially common with Otaku (anime nerds) and gamers. And some of the characters they have crushes on reek of sexism. There’s the maid-type, the little girl who is really hundreds of years old but still needs a male figure, the action girl who has to dress provocatively to be accepted into a male-only club, the damsel in distress. the Moe (can’t think of how to describe her), the innocent fanservice girl–I could go on all night. And they seem to be disillusioned with real women who don’t fit these types. This could be perceived as a level of hate towards them. There seems to be some contention about what it takes to be nerd. I am using the definition that means someone who not only has a large level of knowledge about a subject, but is completely obsessed with that subject, or learning of other subjects to the same degree. One of the indications of this obsession is lack of knowledge in non-geek areas, which sometimes includes social skills. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/74 "2009-11-03T15:59:13Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Sexist? Sure. Probably even grounds for harrassment lawsuits if the men are loud enough or crude enough. But misogynyst? To abuse a well worn quote just a little more, I don’t think that word means what you think it does. Sexism 1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women 2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex Misogyny : hatred or contempt of women Sexism is a behavior. Misogyny is a feeling or attitude. Sexist behavior manifests itself whenever someone feels that women are not as competant or deserving of the same respect as a woman. We are talking about the contempt here. [QUOTE=kanicbird] Misgyny means hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, so it doesn’t look like “view(ing) women as irrational, mysterious beings that are just beyond their grasp” them qualifies. [/quote] That is correct. However, it becomes misogyny when that “viewing women as irrational mysterious beings” turns into either resentment or a sort of general viewing of women as something other than or less than human. It’s not an AND / OR thing and that’s what maybe the (for lack of a better term) nerds on this board have a problem with. Sure it’s ok to look at Maxim magazines or Playboys or whatever. We naturally find women attractive and those materials are designed to feed into that. But if your thought process is such where you only value women as sex objects and targets of sexual conquest, suitable only for dressing up in golden bikinis or posing for Boris Vallejo paitings, it’s a bit mysogynistic, IMHO. > [@Hypnagogic Jerk](#): > > Originally Posted by > Finding pictures of scantily clad women sexy is a normal trait for heterosexual males; she thinks that is sexist. > > msmith537 is a guy, you know. And his opinions regarding “nerds” are a matter of public record. …and women for that matter. So wrap your mind around that.😉 Also “nerd” isn’t a protected class of people. I, like many, dislike people who are overly pedantic, shrill, opinionated, immature, socially awkward, borish or otherwise annoying. If a person recognizes these traits in themselves and sees them as part of their particular social subculture instead of personality defects that they should be working on, that isn’t my problem. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/75 "2009-11-04T00:26:31Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > In a slightly more misogynistic vein I have seen gamers assume that a woman doesn’t know the rules to the game, can’t really do math, and needs a male to help them with gaming in general. Elsewhere on the Web I’ve seen male roleplaying fans who disliked White Wolf games complaining that WW is only successful because girls like their games, and that girls only like their games because they have less math than other roleplaying games. No, really. > [@BigT](#): > > One of the things I’ve seen is that there seems to be more scrutiny for female nerds. I can just go in and start talking to a few nerdy types, and I’m immediately accepted. When my female friends do this, they seem to have to prove they actually know something about whatever nerd culture they are trying to be a part of. > > But I only see this with attractive girls. I’m not so sure it is so much misogyny as it is a prejudice: people are assumed to be either physically attractive or intelligent, but not both. I’ve known this to happen to friends who were fairly average looking, although I guess the geekier one looks the more likely others are to believe one genuinely has geeky interests. I do think it’s funny that some geek guys apparently suspect good-looking women of _lying_ about liking roleplaying games, comics, etc. Like there’s so much for a woman to gain by feigning interest in a hobby viewed with contempt by much of mainstream society. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/76 "2009-11-04T01:47:09Z")
Oh boy, another msmith anti-nerdrage. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/77 "2009-11-04T03:30:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > …and women for that matter. So wrap your mind around that.😉 Maybe, but I tend to think of myself as a nerd, while I don’t usually think of myself as a woman. 😛 > [@](#): > > Also “nerd” isn’t a protected class of people. I, like many, dislike people who are overly pedantic, shrill, opinionated, immature, socially awkward, borish or otherwise annoying. I may call myself a nerd, but I definitely don’t think this describes me. ETA: okay, I concede “opinionated”. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/78 "2009-11-04T06:32:22Z")
> [@](#): > > **Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party** : Is a salesman addressing the woman in the relationship, when buying a washing machine, an example of misandry? Why not? It’s possibly another example of conditioned sexism. She’s the woman. She does the laundry. The appropriate sales behavior is to assume that they are making the decision jointly unless they tell you otherwise. > [@](#): > > … I’m willing to bet that men, on average, know more about computers and other gadgets than women, so why wouldn’t the salesperson play the probabilities and address the man by default? Because he might end up like a certain car salesman that just could not cope with the idea that I really, really, really was picking out the Jeep Wrangler all by myself and I knew exactly what I wanted to custom order, and that even though my husband was with me, he had no input at all. I did everything but flash the man to get his attention, but he just couldn’t address his comments to me. I gave him a final warning and then walked out. If you “address the man by default,” you will make a bad impression on the woman and often on the man for being so insensitive. Why would you want to do that when it wouldn’t cost you anything to be courteous enought to find out who is doing the shopping? Not all feminists are women. > [@](#): > > **elmwood** : You might say “Yeah, but what about guys who are sports fans? They seem to have no problems attracting women, even though relatively few women are sports-crazed.” You don’t live in the South, do you? At my Club it’s hard to get enough members together for lunch and bridge on Saturdays in the fall. SEC football. And if timing allows, we will throw in a few other games too. Then on Sundays we watch the Titans. (One of my Club members is in her eighties and has never missed a home game in the ten years the franchise has been here.) These women are Titans crazy. Some go to Predators games too. Wish I could get my husband to take me! And I was there when the Nashville Sounds played their first game. And I’m not unusual among my friends! > [@](#): > > **Justin Bailey** : None of the Sex and the City characters are real either. Well sure, they’re fictitious and exaggerated for entertainment purposes. But there was enough real about those women that women all over the country could identify with them. There was a lot of _truth._ > [@](#): > > Justin Bailey: Finally, if you can’t understand why a nerd guy would want to date a shy, intellectual, bookish, awkward girl, you don’t have any idea what it’s like being a nerd. We want a girl who is like that because we’re like that. “Opposites attract” may be a common cliche, but finding someone like yourself makes for a better relationship. Dennis Kucinich may not be a nerd, but he looks a little like he might have been one at one time. If you’ve never seen his wife, you will want to check out [this video](http://viralroots.blogspot.com/2007/04/dennis-kucinich-youtube-video-plays-hot.html) of his talking while she stands watching over his shoulder. If you _have_ seen her already, you will probably want to refresh your memory. What is really fun is to watch her walk into a room where there is a Senate hearing about to take place. Every eye in the room is on her – except for his and he is looking down, shuffling papers on his desk, and grinning. Just to look at them, you wouldn’t think they had much in common. ---
**Author:** ![Cesario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Cesario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cesario)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/79 "2009-11-04T07:21:08Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I do think it’s funny that some geek guys apparently suspect good-looking women of _lying_ about liking roleplaying games, comics, etc. Like there’s so much for a woman to gain by feigning interest in a hobby viewed with contempt by much of mainstream society. Self-esteem issues. When the majority of a person’s experience with good looking people involves being abused and ridiculed, they develop a perfectly reasonable expectation that any such interaction is heading in that direction. From that prospective, it makes perfect sense that any seeming common ground must be being feigned in order to open him up for some new torment. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810/80 "2009-11-04T15:02:58Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Elsewhere on the Web I’ve seen male roleplaying fans who disliked White Wolf games complaining that WW is only successful because girls like their games, and that girls only like their games because they have less math than other roleplaying games. Well… I certainly don’t think White Wolf would have been nearly as successful among young women if it’s rules contained the same amount of crunch as D&D. Then again, do a lot of women play Exalted? I won’t play Exalted because it’s way too complicated. Maybe there’s just something about the World of Darkness setting that appeals to a wider range of women than D&D. I wish I liked WW games because they do attract a lot more women than most other games in my experience but I just don’t like the setting and I’ve had bad experiences with the people I know who play it. I don’t know if one set of rules is more likely to attract women gamers than others. I do know that never before have I heard a woman say “Let’s play GURPS!” Though that’s entirely anecdotal and certainly not enough to made broad declarations. I assume that anyone who is playing a game has some familiarity with the rules unless they tell me otherwise. I think something important to remember is that being a nerd or a geek doesn’t automatically make you a good person nor does it automatically get you picked on. There are people who love comics, computer games, and table top role playing games who are just plain jerks. Odesio [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-sort-of-nerdy-misogyny/515810.md?page=5)