# Is there a such thing a the "gay gene"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2000, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292 "2000-10-25T19:21:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/121 "2000-10-26T23:22:59Z")
I’m back. Thanks for the compliment on my post. It touches my soul… And lets me know that writing nice posts here is **far** more important than writing a proposal (25 page paper) so I can pass my qualifying exam. First of all, there is no one gay gene. Homosexuality is probably IMHO a result of numerous genes interacting along with environmental cues and other epigenetic factors. Environmental cues don’t have to be _Little Rascals_ either. They can be hormones, or pheremones, or anything, really. We are influenced by millions of variables at every time, many of them not conciously perceived. I do believe the heart of sexual preference lies specifically with in utero hormone exposure and a genetic milleu, along of course with purely stochastic events. This leads to observable anatomic changes in certain brain nuclei (although this research is shaky…) As the APA states, there is no changing once it is set (and this may be in utero or whenever). Your problem, **Rook** , is that you are confusing _design_ with _correctness_, which is implied by your use of the word “natural.” While yes, the vagina is optimized for intercourse, and yes, the rectum is perhaps not, it doesn’t make it wrong. A human pelvis was not _designed_ for childbirth with our modern cranial size. There is all types of trauma, morbidity, and mortality associated with childbirth. The only other animal I can think of that has this much difficulty is the cow, and we have significantly meddled with its heredity that it might be our own doing. From your arguments, since the pelvis is not optimal for childbirth, vaginal delivery is not natural. You see how ridiculous this is… The fact that the anus is not designed for sex says nothing about the naturalness of homosexuality. As mentioned before, one can easily visualize how a homosexual couple can act for the betterment of a population, and increase the overall health of a population. That would be for the betterment of a population, and positively selected for in evolution (to the extent that 3-15% of people have the tendency towards it). That has nothing to do with anal bleeding. To **Esprix** : There is nothing wrong with anal sex. You just might be prone to more epithelial trauma. You are not going to cause rectal rupture or anything that would lead to a health risk – I don’t think even the heftiest lover would be a match for the integrity of the wall. And, defecation causes its share of trauma as well. I have no data on trauma with lubrication. The only problems may arise as small abrasions create a portal for spread of STDs from seminal fluid. I don’t honestly know if this is eliminated by lubrication. There are no problem with this, though, if you take the right precautions and practice safe sex, whatever, you know the spiel. It is an expression of love. There is nothing wrong with it. Just be careful, and enjoy yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/122 "2000-10-26T23:24:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doobieous \* > \*\*I NEVER said anal sex doesnt cause bleeding, in fact i’ve seen what too frisky play down there can result in (TMI i know, but i felt it had to be said). I KNOW that bleeding can occur, and any FAQ on anal sex will tell you this. \*\* Let me just add in a short addendum before rook jumps on this and tries to use it to “prove” his point. I don’t mean actual bleeding here, i mean _irritation_ that can result in a some of the lube, whatever, having a little pinkness to it. Actual bleeding, as in dripping blood is bad, and i’ve NEVER seen that in anything but images of lacerated rectums. Apologies for not using the right term. ---
**Author:** ![Rook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Rook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rook)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/123 "2000-10-26T23:25:00Z")
Quote from Polycarp: “In a non-confrontational atmosphere, most of them will admit that whether to practice any given sexual activity is in fact a choice. But the orientation, what and whom is desired and why, is not.” Polycarp seems to think there’s a choice. But I do take into consideration the environment someone was brought up in. However, the practice of homosexuality in jail, does prove it is possible to change what you are attracted to under the right circumstances. I’m sure you’ve met gay men who have been married, and who were very much attracted to there wives but later on in life, found out they were gay. If they were gay the entire time, I don’t know. But the fact that at one time they WERE attracted to the opposite gender shows that they were not born with one single attraction toward men Also, you failed to reply about human anatomy. Why would humans be designed for heterosexual sex if homosexuality is as natural as male and female sex? Why wouldn’t the anus produce natural lubrication? Why is it designed for defecation? ---
**Author:** ![Rook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Rook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rook)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/124 "2000-10-26T23:40:39Z")
Edwino I wasn’t the one mixing design with correctness. That was everyone else. That must’ve been the reason for all the harsh reactions and personal insults I’ve been getting. From the beginning I’ve been saying I don’t view homosexuality as wrong or even bad. I’ve been referring to anatomical references and design. My point about anal sex was that it wasn’t designed for intercourse, not that it was wrong. Shoot, I’ve engaged in anal sex with past girlfriends. I didn’t know about how the female pelvis was not optimal for child birth and find that enlightening. But I also stick to my original thought that human anatomy suggests heterosexual sex. When I say that I’m not insulting gays. I’m speaking facts about the human anatomy. Doobieous: When I mention anal bleeding and irritation, I was speaking of intercourse without the use of lubrication. Since you have to add certain things during homosexual intercourse, but with heterosexual sex you do not, I used that as a point that human anatomy accommodates heterosexual sex more the homosexual sex ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/125 "2000-10-26T23:50:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Polycarp seems to think there’s a choice. Polycarp said the _action_ was a choice. We do have choices about our actions. We may not have much choice about what sex we are attracted to, though. > [@](#): > > Why would humans be designed for heterosexual sex if homosexuality is as natural as male and female sex? Why wouldn’t the anus produce natural lubrication? Why is it designed for defecation? If men had been meant to fly, Nature would have given them wings. If men had been meant to use computers, nature would have given them dataports. If men had been meant to live in space, Nature would have given them the ability to breathe air in a vaccuum. What I don’t understand is why you’re so concerned that anal sex is “unnatural” and so gays are “unnatural”, by your tortured defintion, yet you don’t go around talking about all the five billion other things that are equally as “unnatural” that all of us “unnatural” humans do every day. My human physiology wasn’t designed for typing, but calling typing “unnatural” warps the word beyond its true meaning. I think it is equally ridiculous, if not more so (since animals have homosexual sex) to call homosexual sex “unnatural”. You’ve succeeding in defining nearly every act a human does as “unnatural”, which rather robs the word of its customary meaning. ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/126 "2000-10-27T00:01:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rook \* > > ## Quote from beakerxf: “Homosexuality exists as a natural phenomenon, and you haven’t provided any scientific evidence that would demonstrate that it doesn’t. If you want people to argue on scientific terms with you, bring science into your argument and people will respond in kind” > > ## Now read this……. a quote from edwino: A Geneticist and a physician student who teaches Human Sexuality “No matter how good it feels, the anus was not designed for sex. It was designed for defecation.” > > So this raises the question. If the anus, which is penetrated during many gay sexual acts, is not designed for sexual intercourse and the vagina is, doesn’t that mean nature suggests heterosexual sex? I wouldn’t know. I’m a lesbian who has never had anal sex. Have you even pondered lesbians in your theories? You seem to argue against male/male couplings only. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/127 "2000-10-27T00:11:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rook \* > \*\* When I mention anal bleeding and irritation, I was speaking of intercourse without the use of lubrication. Since you have to add certain things during homosexual intercourse, but with heterosexual sex you do not, I used that as a point that human anatomy accommodates heterosexual sex more the homosexual sex > \*\* I believe that it was beaker who mentioned that female lubrication isn’t like an on/off switch. A lot of heterosexual couples use lube because the women can’t self lubricate adequately. And not having to add things during heterosexual sex? Absurd. Many couples have to use medication and/or lube. It’s my understanding that most women reach orgasm through clitoral stimulation, not vaginal. If we’re talking optimal sex here, the penis could just as well be at an extreme angle, to facilitate easier clitoral stimulation. (For the sake of arguement, I’m not taking into account females with unusually low clitorises (clitori?) or men who are extremely bendy.) I await with bated breath your comments on lesbianism. ---
**Author:** ![Rook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Rook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rook)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/128 "2000-10-27T00:13:12Z")
I understand your examples. But once again you’re adding in variables that I didn’t intend in my discussion. Your talking about explorations and human inventions. I’m speaking of neither except the human anatomy. Human with anatomical restriction. We can’t fly, calculate numbers at the speed of computers and can’t travel on foot anywhere near the speed of transportation vehicles. But by using that as an example for why homosexual sex is just as natural (I hate using this word cause it can be defined in so many ways) as heterosexual sex doesn’t add up. It’s like saying flight for man is just as natural as flight for a bird which couldn’t be farther from the truth. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/129 "2000-10-27T00:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rook \* > \*\* > It’s like saying flight for man is just as natural as flight for a bird which couldn’t be farther from the truth. > \*\* If I jumped out of my dorm room window, flapped my arms, and twittered like a little bird, I would no longer have to worry about finishing my linguistics homework. I do not have a genetic propensity or ability to fly. Many people, however, can and do have homosexual sex without needing air traffic control, as it were. It’s a variation within the species- not just in humanity, as has been repeatedly pointed out. Your analogy is deeply flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/130 "2000-10-27T00:21:58Z")
> [@](#): > > However, the practice of homosexuality in jail, does prove it is possible to change what you are attracted to under the right circumstances. Do you honestly believe that male/male relationships in jail are about love or even attraction? No, most of these are about dominance (i seriously doubt an inmate would call his “bitch” his lover). I suppose you think jail rape happens because the two are in love. ---
**Author:** ![Rook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Rook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rook)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/131 "2000-10-27T00:28:31Z")
Beakerxf and andygirl Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t lesbian sex involve instruments such like dildo’s?I do realize there is much more to homosexuals then just sex and also that there can be a lot more understand of each other in a homosexual relationship. But the act of sex itself generally needs some “help” to simulate heterosexual intercourse. The human anatomy is basically the same I’ve read that the vagina has a design to specifically accommodate a penis. I could be wrong. I sure your going to disagree with and end up getting some material of the web. ---
**Author:** ![zen101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c68b51/32.png) [@zen101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zen101)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/132 "2000-10-27T00:30:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt \* > \*\ ***Satan said:** > > \*\*Okay, sloppy wording! I’m not saying that. > If we take Dawkins’“selfish genes” view, genes exist to propagate copies of THEMSELVES. Genes which increase the tendency for individuals to be homosexual seem on the face of it to be at a disadvantage. But if such genes increase the competitiveness of a group w.r.t. other groups (e.g. by increasing same-sex co-operation) the net effect may promote propagation of those genes, even if some individual carriers do not reproduce. Just a little argument against the “it’s unnatural” position. I don’t know if it’s valid. \*\* Dawkins! What a great name drop. 🙂 Have you read The Blind Watchmaker? The guy is certainly a genius. Anyone who read my previous post know that a lot of that work was inspired by Richard Dawkins. Blind Watchmaker and The Extended Phenotype as well as Selfish Gene are all great sourcebooks for someone wantying to learn more on this topic and general genetics. Thanks for the remind. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/133 "2000-10-27T00:30:46Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m speaking of neither except the human anatomy. Human with anatomical restriction. Human mouths were “designed” for the ingestion of food and water. Is it unnatural to use them to kiss with? Human hands were “designed” for grasping tree limbs and tools. Is it unnatural to use them to hold someone else’s hand? I think your definition of natural is overly harsh. If anatomy is the restriction them by your definition the only “natural” sex is vaginal intercouse between a man and a woman. Homosexual sex certainly lacks this (by definition) but that isn’t all there is to heterosexual sex either. Are all other types of sexual contact unnatural? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/134 "2000-10-27T00:34:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rook \* > \*\*Beakerxf and andygirl > > Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t lesbian sex involve instruments such like dildo’s?I do realize there is much more to homosexuals then just sex and also that there can be a lot more understand of each other in a homosexual relationship. But the act of sex itself generally needs some “help” to simulate heterosexual intercourse. The human anatomy is basically the same I’ve read that the vagina has a design to specifically accommodate a penis. I could be wrong. I sure your going to disagree with and end up getting some material of the web.\*\* Why go all over the web, when the answers are right here? [Ummmm…Lesbians](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=36258) I love that thread title 😉 ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/135 "2000-10-27T00:35:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rook \* > \*\*Beakerxf and andygirl > > Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t lesbian sex involve instruments such like dildo’s? > \*\* First of all, try and obtain some actual information before posting rather than trusting what you saw on the porn tape you stole from your dad. Lesbian sex _can_ involve toys but for the most part, does not. Now, as for this, > [@](#): > > I sure your going to disagree with and end up getting some material of the web. It’s called research. Perhaps you should try some. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/136 "2000-10-27T00:37:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rook \* > \*\*Beakerxf and andygirl > > Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t lesbian sex involve instruments such like dildo’s?I do realize there is much more to homosexuals then just sex and also that there can be a lot more understand of each other in a homosexual relationship. But the act of sex itself generally needs some “help” to simulate heterosexual intercourse. > \*\* MBWAHAHAHAHA!! You have no concept of lesbian sex. Hint: don’t trust the pornos. Can lesbians use dildos? Sure. It’s not mandatory, though. Many sex toys/dildos are marketed for straight couples, who use them just as often, if not more, than lesbians or gay men. Nothing in lesbian sex has to involve simulating heterosexual intercourse. Many lesbians do not use dildos and have no desire to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Rook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Rook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rook)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/137 "2000-10-27T00:38:36Z")
That was an extreme example at the least but, some inmates leave prison and become active in the gay community. And how do you know that men haven’t found true love in jail? Just because you’ve heard horror stories of rape and sodomy doesn’t mean every situation was like that. There have been instances of sailor choosing a gay lifestyle after long venture at sea. What about experimentation? Basically to see what it’s like without making a positive choice. I’m sure some have chosen homosexuality after an enjoyable gay experience ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/138 "2000-10-27T00:46:33Z")
**Rook** said: > [@](#): > > The fact that I feel people should be able to do what they want but that doesn’t answer the question of if homosexuality is natural to the human anatomy. Why do I care? Cause I thought this was a post that you can discuss such topics. Why do you care if I care? True, this is a forum where you can discuss such topics. _If_ you do it intelligently. You didn’t come here to get an answer to a question or to even see if someone could help you understand a phenomenon. It is obvious that you came here only to throw out stereotypes, misunderstandings, schoolyard rumors and less-than-stellar “information”. Were you actually interested in having an intelligent discussion on the subject, you would take time to read the links provided for you and attempt to understand the information contained therein. Instead, you insist on repeating the same information over and over again after individuals with (pardon me) hands on experience in such matters have refuted it. I care about the fact that you have come into a forum designed for intelligent discussion and insulted individuals who have done nothing but try to answer your questions. These individuals are trying to do what you asked them to do: > [@](#): > > So my question is, have there been any anatomical similarities within the gay community that straight people don’t have or is there no such thing as the “gay gene”? So, please try to understand what they are telling you. If you would like to discuss the merits of whether or not gay people should have sex since it is so obviously dangerous, painful, fruitless and unnatural, please start a thread i the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/139 "2000-10-27T00:47:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Your talking about explorations and human inventions. Oh, so if you invent a machine to help you do what you were not “designed” to do, it’s OK. Therefore if a man sticks his penis in another man’s anus, it is unnatural. However, if he _invents_ a machine to stick a penis-like object in another man’s anus, that’s _not_ unnatural, because it is a invention instead of using a part of his own body. Huh? > [@](#): > > It’s like saying flight for man is just as natural as flight for a bird which couldn’t be farther from the truth. So, you _are_ saying flight is unnatural. So then is using a computer, looking at art, and talking on a telephone. Now the word “unnatural” has completely lost its usual meaning for me. Please define “unnatural” for me, so I will know what you mean when you use it. ---
**Author:** ![Rook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Rook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rook)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292/140 "2000-10-27T00:47:41Z")
Evilbeth I guess you haven’t read any of my links? Perhaps you should try that. Andygirl I’m postive there much more too it then I mentioned. And just like the rest of the male population, we’ll never fully understand lesbian sex. But what I DO know is that the vagina is designed for sexual intercourse/stimulation and reproduction. There is no appendage on the female body you can honestly say was formed at birth to have sex with another female [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-such-thing-a-the-gay-gene/38292.md?page=8)