# Is there a term for a person with ambiguous first/last names? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 3, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077 "2016-04-03T14:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/21 "2016-04-03T23:00:21Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > When Bruno Hauptmann (Lindbergh baby kidnapper) was in the German army, his commanding officer, a captain (Hauptmann in German) asked Bruno his name. He replied “Hauptmann, Herr Haumptmann”. The captain got mad, figuring he was being mocked. My First SGT in Basic was 1st SGT Burgess. There was also a Private Burgess in my platoon. Once when she identified herself during one of the 1st SGT’s lectures, all the DSs got on her for calling the 1st SGT “Private.” I knew a guy named Nels when I was in high school, and my maiden name was Goldhammer. We both juggled. Someone said we should have an act called “Hammer and Nels.” [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/22 "2016-04-04T00:01:53Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > In some parts of the USA, it used to be fairly common for the mother’s maiden name to be used as the child’s given name. Which is the explanation for: > [@N9IWP](#): > > Clark Kent ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/23 "2016-04-04T01:27:43Z")
Marvel Comics really likes to use simple names for their characters. Many examples are first names used for last names as noted above. As a separate matter, they and other comic & animated cartoon producers also like first and last names to start with the same letter. Adam Ant. Lois Lane. Lex Luthor. Peter Parker. Mighty Mouse. et al. Clark Kent is spelled with different first letters but has the same first sound. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/24 "2016-04-04T01:43:06Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > From the world of literature, we have a family named Major who named their son Major Major … who then went on to become a Major in the Army Air Corps in WWII … > > Major Major Major Major … I had a relative whose last name was Major. During WWII, he occasionally would receive mail addressed to Major Clarence, instead of Clarence Major. (His first name wasn’t actually “Clarence” but it will do for purposes of this post.) ---
**Author:** ![MoreyG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@MoreyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MoreyG)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/25 "2016-04-04T03:10:10Z")
Well, for what it’s worth: Firsty-Firsty. [http://www.gq.com/story/paul-ryans-secret-advantage-being-a-firsty-firsty](http://www.gq.com/story/paul-ryans-secret-advantage-being-a-firsty-firsty) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/26 "2016-04-04T03:30:26Z")
> [@MoreyG](#): > > Well, for what it’s worth: Firsty-Firsty. Good find. It sounds as though the thread is also discussing the parallel phenomena of the “Lasty-Lasty” and the “Lasty-Firsty”. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/27 "2016-04-04T04:49:14Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > **Thudlow** ’s point being that what we think of as a typical family name, or a typical given name, is completely arbitrary and changes over time. To the degree that’s true the OP’s question is mostly meaningless. \*Any \* complete name can be seen as a combo of two names either of which could reasonably be a family name and either of which could reasonably be a given name. It might be stressed that we are talking only about names of British origin. Spanish last names, for example, are distinct and virtually never used as first names; nor do typical first names appear as last names. There are separate ways of forming a last name from a first name, for example: Gonzalo Gonzalez Fernando Fernandez Martin Martinez Rodrigo Rodriguez Gomez Addams was exceptional since Gomez would not normally be used as a first name. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/28 "2016-04-04T05:14:51Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It might be stressed that we are talking only about names of British origin. Spanish last names, for example, are distinct and virtually never used as first names; nor do typical first names appear as last names. There are separate ways of forming a last name from a first name, for example: > > Gonzalo Gonzalez > Fernando Fernandez > Martin Martinez > Rodrigo Rodriguez > > Gomez Addams was exceptional since Gomez would not normally be used as a first name. No, we’re not just talking about surnames of British origin. Surnames of Irish origin, for example, are regularly repurposed as forenames in the US - Ryan, Murphy, Kelly, Cassidy - even though this doesn’t happen in Ireland, or happens only on a small scale and mostly in imitation of the US practice… I think what’s going on here is that the US applies an originally British custom of “firsting” surnames to names from other ethnic traditions. They _don’t_ do that for Spanish names because Hispanic culture is sufficiently enduring in the US to establish and maintain its own practices in this regard. But my suspicion is that it’s Spanish and possibly one or two other nomenclatures that are the exception here; the norm in the US is that surnames are repurposed relatively freely, and this isn’t confined to surnames from Britain. Interestingly enough, in Ireland Anglo-Saxon surnames are “firsted” fairly readily, but Gaelic surnames very rarely. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/29 "2016-04-04T06:27:16Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It might be stressed that we are talking only about names of British origin. Spanish last names, for example, are distinct and virtually never used as first names; nor do typical first names appear as last names. There are separate ways of forming a last name from a first name, for example: > > Gonzalo Gonzalez > Fernando Fernandez > Martin Martinez > Rodrigo Rodriguez > > Gomez Addams was exceptional since Gomez would not normally be used as a first name. Gomez Addams was Anglo, really, even if the actor wasn’t. All those lastnames listed are the patronimics of the given firstname and as you say, they’re all distinct from it. But there’s the exception: the firstname García produces two patronimics (García and Garcés), of which one happens to be both identical to the firstname itself and more common in Spain than any of the others. ``` PRIMER APELLIDO FRECUENCIA Por 1.000 ``` 1 GARCIA -------------- 1.476.378 31,6 2 GONZALEZ ------------ 929.938 19,9 3 RODRIGUEZ ----------- 928.305 19,8 4 FERNANDEZ ---------- 922.007 19,7 Taken from the link “_Primer apellido por provincia de residencia y de nacimiento_” (First lastname, separated by province of residence and of birth), [here](http://www.ine.es/daco/daco42/nombyapel/nombyapel.htm). **UDS** , how often is that done with Italian, German, Swedish, Polish lastnames? ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/30 "2016-04-04T06:38:26Z")
EDIT: nm ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/31 "2016-04-04T06:43:04Z")
> [@andrea\_green](#): > > I am wondering what might be the best way to describe someone whose surname and given name could both be interpreted as a first name. > > For example: Kyle Maxwell, Duncan Kennedy, Wilson James. I thought you were going to be going the other way–both names sound like a last name. I have a common last name as a first name, and a common first name as a last name. I’ve actually wound up confused when someone who was actually named TBig was called. I just assumed they’d made a mistake. Oh, and my last name is often a girl’s first name. So I’ve also wound up being mistaken for a girl when filling things out. I almost wound up in a girl’s dorm in college. To correct the mistake, they had to move me into a nearby hotel until space cleared up. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/32 "2016-04-04T07:22:57Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > **UDS** , how often is that done with Italian, German, Swedish, Polish lastnames? Good question, and I realise that I don’t know the answer. All of the common examples that I can think of are either Anglo-Saxon or Gaelic surnames. So maybe, in fact, the exceptional case here is the Gaelic surnames. Maybe that’s the only class of surnames routinely used as given names in the US even though this is not the practice in the country of origin? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/33 "2016-04-04T07:49:17Z")
This is in part stuff that I’ve gathered on the issue from the Dope and other sources, in part taken from my left elbow. Piece of data: in the US, that custom is almost if not completely restricted to Anglo names, where Anglo is in the meaning of “from places where the main language is English”, not in that of “of English origin”. That includes all of the British Isles, not just GB or England. Piece of data whose source I don’t recall: the origin of the custom seems to be that Scottish soldiers picked it up from the Portuguese own naming custom of using both a maternal and paternal lastname, in that order. Since Scottish name structures already included multiple personal names but did not include multiple family names, they used the maternal lastname as one of the personal names (i.e., as a middle name). According to the same source this happened at the time of the Napoleonic Wars, so c. 1810. Piece of data: there was a lot of migration out and through Scotland in the 19th century, the “through” including many Irish. So from Portugal to Scotland, from Scotland to all those places where Scots and people traveling through Scotland went in the 19th century, including the US. Other groups and other countries haven’t picked up the custom. They may do it at some point, but as of this point in time have not. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/34 "2016-04-04T08:14:01Z")
The only data I have to add to that is that the practice is certainly present in Ireland (and I’m pretty sure Scotland) well before 1810. Henry Joy McCracken was born in 1767; his middle name is his mother’s maiden name. I don’t know when Beauchamp Bagenal Harvey was born, but he died in 1798; both of his given names are surnames. James Napper Tandy was born in 1739. Theobald Wolfe Tone was born in 1763; his second forename was the surname of his godfather. These are all Protestants, and there is a strong Scottish influence, especially in Ulster, so the custom could well have come from Scotland. But it certainly predates the Napoleonic era. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/35 "2016-04-04T08:14:33Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > So maybe, in fact, the exceptional case here is the Gaelic surnames. Maybe that’s the only class of surnames routinely used as given names in the US even though this is not the practice in the country of origin? Bearing in mind that quite a lot of surnames in both Scottish and Irish Gaelic would originally have been patronymics (i.e., at some point a father’s given name got fixed as a family surname)… (My understanding is that in Hispanic practice, you adopt both parents’ surnames, so you wouldn’t want another as a given name; but people from cultures who don’t might well imagine one or other surname is in fact the person’s given name ) ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/36 "2016-04-04T08:35:08Z")
I’m thinking that there may have been a distinction here, both in Scotland and in Ireland, between the Anglophone and Gaelic-speaking cultures. It seems to me that it’s mostly Anglophone, lowland Scots who turn surnames into forenames, and simiilarly in Ireland it’s Anglophone settlers (many of whom are from Scotland) and their descendants who do so. And it’s the names associated with those cultures which get treated in this way. Gaelic-speakers don’t do this, either in Scotland or in Ireland. And even their descendants who adopt English don’t do it, at least with Gaelic names. You’re right to say that most Gaelic surnames are in fact patronymics; this probably militates against their being adopted as forenames. Why call your son McMurrough when you can simply call him Murrough? But I notice that this hasn’t prevented Anglo names like Jackson from becoming forenames. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/37 "2016-04-04T10:30:22Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > “Kennedy” was chosen as a given name for lots of newborns during / after JFK’s presidency. Prior to that almost nobody had that as a given name. IOW, that name became repurposed from being exclusively a family name to also being a given name. > > **Thudlow** ’s point being that what we think of as a typical family name, or a typical given name, is completely arbitrary and changes over time. To the degree that’s true the OP’s question is mostly meaningless. \*Any \* complete name can be seen as a combo of two names either of which could reasonably be a family name and either of which could reasonably be a given name. > > e.g. Taylor was unheard of as a given name in my childhood back in the 1950s. Today every elementary school in the land is positively lousy with cute little Taylors running around squealing at one another. > > In countries with formal lists of legally acceptable given names the situation is quite different. The USA is past that silliness and if some ethnic groups are taken as thought leaders on this, soon enough every possible combo of pronounceable syllables will be a valid name belonging to somebody. Kennedy is not a first name I’ve never seen in the wild. Now, granted I’m just one person and the stats do bear out that it was in the top 1000 names for a long while, I never saw it and I was born around that time. Since it says “Highest Percentage: 0.012% in 1964” those would be my peers and again, nothing. It reminds me of Kunta Kinte from roots fame. Kunta was popular for a bit but I’ve never met anyone who was named it. Heck, it was a one hit wonder but “Highest Percentage: 0.014% in 1977” you’d think I’d have run across it at some point. None of these lists breaks down regionally and I’d suspect that there is a bit of this going on here. Popular doesn’t mean popular everywhere after all. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/38 "2016-04-04T12:07:30Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It might be stressed that we are talking only about names of British origin. Spanish last names, for example, are distinct and virtually never used as first names; nor do typical first names appear as last names. There are separate ways of forming a last name from a first name, for example: > … > [@UDS](#): > > … > I think what’s going on here is that the US applies an originally British custom of “firsting” surnames to names from other ethnic traditions. They _don’t_ do that for Spanish names because Hispanic culture is sufficiently enduring in the US to establish and maintain its own practices in this regard. But my suspicion is that it’s Spanish and possibly one or two other nomenclatures that are the exception here; the norm in the US is that surnames are repurposed relatively freely, and this isn’t confined to surnames from Britain. > … All that sounds sensible and yes, I was thinking only of mainstream white US names at the time. An interesting question is how much over the next, say, 50 years, Hispanic culture in the US becomes less insular and more integrated. Certainly there’s lots of intermarrying going on now, and more all the time. Plus plain old cultural assimilation. Immigration will probably continue at a good clip, but the native born 1st, 2nd, and soon 3rd generation Hispanic USAians are only getting to be larger groups over time. Given that, how much, if at all, will Hispanic heritage folks begin adopting more Anglo-style naming conventions? To be sure, I’m just speculating here but experts may already be seeing some early signs. Or not. Or maybe, like the slow spread of Spanglish, we’ll see some Anglos adopting patronymics & matronymics. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/39 "2016-04-04T13:56:51Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Given that, how much, if at all, will Hispanic heritage folks begin adopting more Anglo-style naming conventions? Names like Wilson, Nelson and so on are not uncommon as given names in Brazil, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/40 "2016-04-04T14:02:20Z")
And Cameron Díaz’s name always cracks me up; apparently she does have a middle name of Michelle. In Spanish-speaking countries, Yésicas are perfectly common for certain ages and socioeconomic strata (in Spain “la Yesi” has become shorthand for women of that specific group), although those living in the US normally spell it Jessica. I’ve had Latin American coworkers with names such as Nelson or Franklin. I’ve also known a Rommel, from the Philippines. But except for Ms Diaz, whose name does follow general US conventions, all those fall under the same heading as Anglos using Delores, Chelo or Joya (pronounced Yoya): it’s just picking a firstname from another culture, something that’s been going on for thousands of years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077.md?page=3)