# Is there a term for a person with ambiguous first/last names? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 3, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077 "2016-04-03T14:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/41 "2016-04-04T21:09:39Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > So maybe, in fact, the exceptional case here is the Gaelic surnames. Maybe that’s the only class of surnames routinely used as given names in the US even though this is not the practice in the country of origin? Aren’t there people born in Celtic countries with the given name of Craig? Didn’t that start as a surname? ---
**Author:** ![ruh-roh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ruh-roh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruh-roh)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/42 "2016-04-04T21:33:23Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > From the world of literature, we have a family named Major who named their son Major Major … who then went on to become a Major in the Army Air Corps in WWII … > > Major Major Major Major … In the late 90’s my father put pen to paper and recounted his time as a Navigator in a B-24 during WWII. They were shot down and he survived the jump, but not all did. The German’s were apparently fastidious about accounting for all the crew and kept asking him about a fellow crew member whose last name happened to be Major. Language was a problem and every time they asked him about Lieutenant Major he would just reply there is no such rank in the American army. My dad wondered why I found it so funny. I kept thinking it is too bad Lieutenant Major didn’t live long enough to get promoted. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/43 "2016-04-04T21:50:57Z")
Then there’s Johns Hopkins, who had the university named after him. His first name was actually “Johns”, with the S. It was a last name that got firsted, but of course the last name is derived from the first name “John”. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/44 "2016-04-04T22:14:04Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > (My understanding is that in Hispanic practice, you adopt both parents’ surnames, so you wouldn’t want another as a given name; but people from cultures who don’t might well imagine one or other surname is in fact the person’s given name ) The fact that first and family names are for the most part not interchangeable in traditional Spanish (although with a few exceptions as **Nava** notes) helps to avoid confusion. But it can get quite confusing in a melting pot like Panama, where many people have West Indian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, or South Asian names. It can be ambiguous whether someone who uses three names is using a first name, middle name, and father’s family name; or first name, father’s family name, and mother’s family name. > [@Nava](#): > > And Cameron Díaz’s name always cracks me up; apparently she does have a middle name of Michelle. In Spanish-speaking countries, Yésicas are perfectly common for certain ages and socioeconomic strata (in Spain “la Yesi” has become shorthand for women of that specific group), although those living in the US normally spell it Jessica. I’ve had Latin American coworkers with names such as Nelson or Franklin. I’ve also known a Rommel, from the Philippines. But except for Ms Diaz, whose name does follow general US conventions, all those fall under the same heading as Anglos using Delores, Chelo or Joya (pronounced Yoya): it’s just picking a firstname from another culture, something that’s been going on for thousands of years. Anglo first names derived from family names are common enough in Panama, such as Nixon, Nelson, Robinson, etc, mostly but not exclusively among those of (English speaking) West Indian descent. (Panamanians are notorious for exotic first names, especially grandiose classical ones: Alcibiades, Aladino, Baltisar, Anibal (Hannibal); or from other cultures like Ivan and Omar.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/45 "2016-04-04T22:31:20Z")
Nixon, really? Is he better-regarded in Panama than in the US? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/46 "2016-04-05T00:19:28Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > All that sounds sensible and yes, I was thinking only of mainstream white US names at the time. > > An interesting question is how much over the next, say, 50 years, Hispanic culture in the US becomes less insular and more integrated. Certainly there’s lots of intermarrying going on now, and more all the time. Plus plain old cultural assimilation. Immigration will probably continue at a good clip, but the native born 1st, 2nd, and soon 3rd generation Hispanic USAians are only getting to be larger groups over time… I think there are two big reasons why Hispanic identity in the USA has not merged with Anglo identity in the way that Irish-American and German-American identity have merged is that: 1. There is still a sizeable amount of immigration of Hispanic people to the USA, which keeps the language alive and which continues to make the ethnicity seem more foreign (since large numbers of those of the ethnicity are, in fact, foreigners or of foreign origin). If there were still large numbers of immigrants from Germany arriving every year and settling in to German-speaking enclaves in Memphis or wherever, I’d bet that today’s fifth-generation English-speaking German-Americans would feel quite a bit more foreign than they do in our reality. 2. The presence of Puerto Rico, a Spanish-speaking island that has resisted assimilation. If there was, say, a large Gaelic-speaking island somewhere that had a complex and stressful but enduring relationship where all the inhabitants received automatic US citizenship, I’d guess that the descendants of Highlanders and Irish Gaels in the US (but outside this island) would feel much more Gaelic than they do in our reality. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/47 "2016-04-05T01:05:03Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Aren’t there people born in Celtic countries with the given name of Craig? Didn’t that start as a surname? It’s a common first name in Scotland; rarer in Ireland. And, yes, it’s of Gaelic derivation. But I don’t think the forename is derived from the surname; they both derive from _creag_, a rock. Most likely this started out as a nickname, used for people who were rocklike in some respect or other (maybe they were sturdy and dependable; maybe they just had rocks in the head); then it became a regular given name and, from that, a family name. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/48 "2016-04-05T03:41:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Nixon, really? Is he better-regarded in Panama than in the US? I’m not sure it was after the president, and anyway he may have been born before Watergate. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/49 "2016-04-05T05:21:37Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > From the world of literature, we have a family named Major who named their son Major Major … who then went on to become a Major in the Army Air Corps in WWII … > > Major Major Major Major … According to Joseph Heller, the character was inspired by a man who was part of his squadron in WW2. Surname and Rank were both “Major.” ---
**Author:** ![sunstone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunstone/32/3372_2.png) [@sunstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunstone)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/50 "2016-04-05T06:32:15Z")
My given name is often a last name, and my last name is often a given name. The only problems I’ve had over my lifetime consist of people who insist my last name is my first, and vice versa. As a kid, I remember filling out a library card application three times; the librarian insisted that I had made an error in filling out the form (Last name first, followed by given name) I finally convinced her that I did know my name, and had filled out the form correctly. My adult children were given names that can possibly be last names, but they do not have the degree of confusion over their names as I have. My wife has a first name that is never a last name so she has no sympathy for me and our children. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/51 "2016-04-05T07:17:06Z")
Hmm… did anyone ever name their child “Lastname Firstname Middlename”. You can’t even copy… what , you must be playing games with me ! Get out of here and never come back ! ---
**Author:** ![MacLir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@MacLir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacLir)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/52 "2016-04-05T14:15:39Z")
In my own case: First Name - Most often a first name, but not unheard of as a last Middle Name - Uncommon spelling (but I think it may be the original spelling), my father’s first name, but only other user of that spelling I know of has it as a last name. Last Name - much more common as a first name (unless prefixed with Mac or O’) My mother’s maiden name is more common as a first name, and often mistaken, and she said she thought it would be a pleasant change when she married a man with a simple name - then she found out how many different spellings there were. (Supposedly over 100 if you count the Macs and the O’s) :smack: In fact, the gentleman referred to above has a variant of my last name as his first. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/53 "2016-04-06T01:35:06Z")
> [@sunstone](#): > > My given name is often a last name, and my last name is often a given name. The only problems I’ve had over my lifetime consist of people who insist my last name is my first, and vice versa. > … > My wife has a first name that is never a last name so she has no sympathy for me and our children. My given name is sometimes a last name, and my last name is often a given name. Same for my brother. It’s not a problem for other people, but I do remember answering the phone in some confusion when I got a call from [Lastname, Brother]. For a moment I was – no this isn’t [Brother Lastname], shall I get him? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/54 "2016-04-08T21:43:27Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It might be stressed that we are talking only about names of British origin. Spanish last names, for example, are distinct and virtually never used as first names; nor do typical first names appear as last names. I sure hope Italians never adopt that practice, and here’s why. Like in Spanish, Italian given names and surnames do not overlap. I do a lot of translations from Italian and I have to be able to tell what is someone’s last name or first name so I can put given name first and surname last consistently. But in Italy they do this crazy thing where they put their surname first, like in Hungary, China, or Japan. Unlike in those countries, Italians don’t use reverse order consistently. Maybe only about half the time, and that randomly. It isn’t uncommon to find a person’s name given in both orders at different places on the same document. This randomly scrambled madness works only because surnames don’t get used as given names, and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/55 "2016-04-13T01:55:00Z")
Just met a Peyton. Girl. Did we disinclude Latin-derived names? Andrea goes both, but in English I’ve seen only female. OP? Rainer Maria Rilke. Leopold Paula Bloom (typo, presumably, on his birth certificate). Didn’t Winston Churchill have some feminine name? John Wayne also? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/56 "2016-04-13T12:18:46Z")
John Wayn’e given birth name was “Marion.” ---
**Author:** ![Waltzes\_with\_Cacti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90ced4/32.png) [@Waltzes\_with\_Cacti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waltzes_with_Cacti)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/57 "2016-04-13T18:11:01Z")
A popular bandleader from the big band era used to be introduced to audiences as “Harry James, the man with two front names.” ---
**Author:** ![svd678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/58 "2016-04-14T14:42:27Z")
I knew a man whose first name was Chancelor. He said when he entered college the president complained he was outranked by a freshman. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/59 "2016-04-14T15:29:24Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I sure hope Italians never adopt that practice, and here’s why. Like in Spanish, Italian given names and surnames do not overlap. I do a lot of translations from Italian and I have to be able to tell what is someone’s last name or first name so I can put given name first and surname last consistently. > > But in Italy they do this crazy thing where they put their surname first, like in Hungary, China, or Japan. Unlike in those countries, Italians don’t use reverse order consistently. Maybe only about half the time, and that randomly. It isn’t uncommon to find a person’s name given in both orders at different places on the same document. This randomly scrambled madness works only because surnames don’t get used as given names, and vice versa. Rarely, they do. I have seen Rosa, Palma, Roberto, Sabato, Tommasino, Massimino, and Ippolito as Italian surnames. It’s definitely unusual, though. All are examples from Campania in the 19th century, and yes, I’m sure that none are just the cases of having the order reversed (though the records I’m working with do occasionally randomly switch the order as you say). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/60 "2016-04-14T15:34:08Z")
None of those are a case of “last name used as first name”, though. “First name as a last name” happens in Spanish names as well (both with and without a _San_ or _Santa_ or a _de_). Often the last name version used to have that extra bit but lost it, either gradually or by government fiat (which may have been simply a matter of the guy at the civil registry writing the name whichever way he felt like using). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077.md?page=4)