# Is there a term for a person with ambiguous first/last names? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 3, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077 "2016-04-03T14:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/61 "2016-04-14T16:00:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > None of those are a case of “last name used as first name”, though. “First name as a last name” happens in Spanish names as well (both with and without a _San_ or _Santa_ or a _de_). Often the last name version used to have that extra bit but lost it, either gradually or by government fiat (which may have been simply a matter of the guy at the civil registry writing the name whichever way he felt like using). True. Exactly the same can be said of the Italian names (“Di” is more common than “De,” but both are found in profusion). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/62 "2016-04-21T17:12:59Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Rarely, they do. I have seen Rosa, Palma, Roberto, Sabato, Tommasino, Massimino, and Ippolito as Italian surnames. It’s definitely unusual, though. All are examples from Campania in the 19th century, and yes, I’m sure that none are just the cases of having the order reversed (though the records I’m working with do occasionally randomly switch the order as you say). Right, there are rare exceptions in both Italian and Spanish: I thought of Albert Anastasia and Raúl Julia. In America, girls get surnames as first names. In Romance languages, girls’ first names become surnames? At least that would offer a sort of symmetry. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/63 "2016-04-21T17:26:59Z")
In all these cases, it’s probably patronymics and matronymics in the form “DI X” that get elided to “X” over time. In my list, the same individuals are alternately “Rosa” or “Di Rosa”; same with “Palma” and “Di Palma.” I don’t have examples in my data of the others alternating, but I’m sure I’ve seen “Di Sabato” as a surname. I’ve also noticed the surprising habit of assigning orphans surnames chosen at random. “Massimo” was one of those. The death rate of orphans is astronomical (something above 90%), so most of the surnames don’t get passed on, but a couple do. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/64 "2016-04-23T16:12:02Z")
There are cases where Chinese characters used in Japanese, which the Japanese call kanji, can signify either a surname or a given name. However in most cases the Japanese pronunciation (ie the hiragana rendering of the character) is different in the two cases. For example 永, meaning ‘long’ or ‘eternity’ in Chinese, can signify the surname Nagai or the given name Hisashi in Japanese, among other pronunciations. There might be cases in which the pronunciation is also the same as given or surname, though I can’t think of any offhand, better Japanese speakers might. Anyway there are a fair number of cases such as the example. In Korean a large % of surnames are a single Chinese character and large % of given names are two Chinese characters. However there are exceptions including cases where surname and given name are both one character, where it’s possible the given name could be a phoneme in the Korean language that is also a surname. I knew a person with such a name. However the Chinese character of his given name was not the same as the one used for the surname, the two Chinese characters just had the same pronunciation in Korean and thus the same spelling in the Korean alphabet. In Japanese the same Chinese character is often pronounced different ways in different contexts, with a pronunciation related to the Chinese and other often completely different pronunciations from the indigenous language. Also sometimes the same pronunciation might be used for different characters. In Korean several to dozens of fairly common Chinese characters share the same Chinese-language related pronunciation and Korean spelling, without the tonal distinctions of the Chinese spoken language. The same character might have varying pronunciation in Korean depending on context but a relatively similar not completely different pronunciation. In those two languages there’s thus a different kind of ambiguity as to what ‘the same name’ means than in various Western languages. Does it mean the same pronunciation and same hiragana/hangul spelling in Japanese/Korean, or does it mean same underlying Chinese character? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/65 "2016-04-24T11:48:41Z")
Perhaps this has been mentioned, but…Rather like in Icelandic and Russian, traditionally in Tamil one’s first (given) name is one’s father’s last (family) name, especially for men, so: 1. ALL names were equally regarded as “typically first” or “typically last,” and 2. “Family” names change each generation. My father-in-law decided to end this practice with his children, so my wife’s maiden (family) name is the same as my father-in-laws’s FIRST (given) name. It’s also my brother-in-law’s last name, and the last name of his kids (my nephews), in the normal, Western, English style. Thus, potentially hundreds of people for centuries into the future will have a last name that just happened to be the first (given) name of a particular person born in the 20th century – my father-in-law. ---
**Author:** ![from\_a\_to\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5fc32e/32.png) [@from\_a\_to\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/from_a_to_z)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/66 "2016-04-24T22:26:51Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > No one in the OP was given the name Kennedy. There was a Kyle, a Duncan and a Wilson. Am I missing something and if so, what? > [@LSLGuy](#): > > “Kennedy” was chosen as a given name for lots of newborns during / after JFK’s presidency. Prior to that almost nobody had that as a given name. IOW, that name became repurposed from being exclusively a family name to also being a given name. This brings back memories of a former NBA player with the Bulls and SuperSonics, [Kennedy](http://blackathlete.net/2009/03/kennedy-mcintosh-1949-2009/) [McIntosh](http://www.eclubletterwinners.com/hall-of-fame-athlete.php?id=107). Evidently not the Kennedy McIntosh who has the [Best Friend Tag with Haylee!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrsbYkGlMFE) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/67 "2016-04-24T23:37:29Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Right, there are rare exceptions in both Italian and Spanish: I thought of Albert Anastasia and Raúl Julia. In America, girls get surnames as first names. In Romance languages, girls’ first names become surnames? At least that would offer a sort of symmetry. Carlos is probably the (male) first name I have seen most frequently as a Spanish surname. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/68 "2016-04-25T06:21:43Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’ve also noticed the surprising habit of assigning orphans surnames chosen at random. “Massimo” was one of those. The death rate of orphans is astronomical (something above 90%), so most of the surnames don’t get passed on, but a couple do. I don’t know if this will have happened in Italy, but in Spain two common sources of lastnames for foundlings were the name of the place where they’d been found (often a church, which would yield a “Sansomething” name) or of the saint of the day. They might even get the name of one of the day’s saints as a firstname, and of another as a lastname. > [@Johanna](#): > > Right, there are rare exceptions in both Italian and Spanish: I thought of Albert Anastasia and Raúl Julia. In America, girls get surnames as first names. In Romance languages, girls’ first names become surnames? At least that would offer a sort of symmetry. Julià (cat), then Juliá (es), then Julia (en). It’s of Catalan origin and male (Julianus, Julian), not the female firstname Julia. **Colibri** , I suspect you’ve actually encountered García more often. It’s only that nowadays it’s rare as a firstname. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/69 "2016-04-25T15:39:39Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I don’t know if this will have happened in Italy, but in Spain two common sources of lastnames for foundlings were the name of the place where they’d been found (often a church, which would yield a “Sansomething” name) or of the saint of the day. They might even get the name of one of the day’s saints as a firstname, and of another as a last name… Isn’t this the way–not just for Spanish catholics–that some women (I’ve only seen this with nuns, admittedly) will get unabashedly male first names, let alone ambiguous ones? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/70 "2016-04-25T15:54:00Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I don’t know if this will have happened in Italy, but in Spain two common sources of lastnames for foundlings were the name of the place where they’d been found (often a church, which would yield a “Sansomething” name) or of the saint of the day. They might even get the name of one of the day’s saints as a firstname, and of another as a lastname. No saints in my lists so far. There are 73 orphan surnames, including: diminutive given names: Agrippino, Costantino, Marcellino, Massimino regular given names: Fortunato, Roberto, Rolando random nouns: Aiuto (help), Fiore (flower), Ottobre (October), Paradiso (Paradise), Pertuso (dial.: hole), Spada (sword), Specchio (mirror) compounds: Bellafortuna (good luck), Malerba (weed, lit. “bad grass”) street names: Fontana, Serrabocca places: Foresta (forest) adjectives: Gentile (nice) ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/71 "2016-04-25T22:06:17Z")
This thread reminds me of Libby Lewis (NPR reporter) doing a story on Lewis (“Scooter”) Libby during his scandal. Apparently NPR got a number of emails from confused listeners thinking that Ms. Lewis had gotten Mr. Libby’s name wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077/72 "2016-04-26T12:21:44Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Isn’t this the way–not just for Spanish catholics–that some women (I’ve only seen this with nuns, admittedly) will get unabashedly male first names, let alone ambiguous ones? No, the nuns choose those names because of their meaning. As for combinations such as María Jesús, that’s unabashedly female while its cousin Jesús María is unabashedly male: the first word defines the gender for the whole name. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-term-for-a-person-with-ambiguous-first-last-names/751077.md?page=3)