# Is there a thinker or philosopher who wasn't also a large product of their time? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 25, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842 "2015-08-25T15:38:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Oedipus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Oedipus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oedipus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/1 "2015-08-25T15:38:53Z")
I secretly giggle at the fact that much-loved figures such as John Locke upheld the institution of slavery or that John Stuart Mill upheld liberty except for the pesky barbarians in the colonies. However, I keep wondering if there’s someone who was totally ahead of their time without major exceptions, especially with regards to their own writing. I don’t care too much about them whoring around or drinking too much. Anyone have any ideas? Also - if this is the wrong section for this, forgive me. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/2 "2015-08-25T16:30:34Z")
William Blake, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Oedipus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Oedipus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oedipus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/3 "2015-08-26T02:16:54Z")
Bump? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/4 "2015-08-26T02:24:52Z")
I think just about everybody is–in one way or another–a product of their time, however, much they want to deny it. Even people who are “ahead of their time,” too. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/5 "2015-08-26T09:14:04Z")
I came to say William Blake. I’m not sure whether it’s fair to decry Locke or, for example, Bartolomé de las Casas for their opinions of slavery. American slavery, as it developed over time, was a different beast than it had been historically (e.g., during Roman and ancient times) and had God’s clear blessing (based on the style that was prevalent during Roman and ancient times). It’s conceivable that, during those times, the negative aspects of American slavery either hadn’t developed yet or hadn’t become publicized in Europe. I’ve read, for example, about African Americans traveling through Europe in the 1800s, to spread word about what was happening there, and that lead to the UK and other nations putting pressure on the US to change. But I don’t know that this is the case. Blake seems to be pretty indisputable though. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/6 "2015-08-26T09:53:24Z")
Hell, even Blake’s [paintings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Red_Dragon_Paintings) would look at home on DeviantArt. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/7 "2015-08-26T12:00:00Z")
> [@Oedipus](#): > > Bump? [Nah.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php) Strictly a rank amateur and dilettante. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/8 "2015-08-26T12:08:00Z")
They all wrestled with similar questions of what is knowable, what is freedom/free will and do we have it, etc. They just considered their circle of Humanity to be more limited that we do. As we progress from God’s Chosen Beings to a scrappy species on a seemingly-random planet, how will that circle continue to change? As we learn more about other animals’ ability to think, feel, bond, etc., will we expand our circle to include them? “Yes, that philosopher was talking lofty, but he didn’t include other mammals! How limited and ironic!” In a What Goes Around, Comes Around way, how is this different from various Animist and Buddhist-type teachings? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/9 "2015-08-26T13:32:43Z")
I would nominate Spinoza. > **[Baruch Spinoza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza)** > > Baruch (de) Spinoza\[b\] (24 November 1632 – 21 February 1677) was a philosopher of Portuguese-Jewish origin, born in Amsterdam, the Dutch Republic, and mostly known under the Latinized pen name Benedictus de Spinoza. One of the foremost and seminal thinkers of the Enlightenment, modern biblical criticism, and 17th-century Rationalism, including modern conceptions of the self and the universe, he came to be considered "one of the most important philosophers—and Spinoza was raised in the Portugu... ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/10 "2015-08-26T22:59:52Z")
The op seems to ask for examples of political philosophers who went beyond justifying the economic and political institutions of their time and place. There are lots of these, but they tend not to be as well studied and remembered, for obvious reasons. So we may look to the rebels of the day for examples, to those who said, hey! this slavery thing sorta puts a crimp in our notions of democracy here in Athens! List upon request. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/11 "2015-08-27T00:44:36Z")
Are we looking for moral/ethical views, or scientific? If the latter, then I’d nominate Gregor Mendel, who pretty much single-handedly founded the science of genetics, starting from no more knowledge than any farmer would have had for thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/12 "2015-08-27T00:52:44Z")
[This review](http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/08/11/book-review-chronicles-of-wasted-time/) of the autobiography of Malcolm Muggeridge is an interesting look at someone who was very much out of place with the time he was in. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/13 "2015-08-27T02:48:56Z")
I happen to be reading Bertrand Russell’s history of Western philosophy where he outs each philosopher in context not only among philosophers but also the culture of the time, making it quite clear what’s already in the air and what’s novel. You might find it as interesting as I do. One point he makes is that most thinkers who are known for originating an idea generally were preceded by someone with that idea who expressed it before the culture was ready, so it fell on deaf ears. (This happened with many inventions as well, though of course that’s not covered by Russell.) I wish Russell were here to answer your question, which I find interesting. It’d be right up his alley. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/14 "2015-08-27T04:07:16Z")
Ayn Rand contradicted just about every aspect of the time she lived in. Whether she was “ahead of her time” is of course debatable. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/15 "2015-08-27T09:28:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Hell, even Blake’s [paintings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Red_Dragon_Paintings) would look at home on DeviantArt. You know what, that is a really really accurate description.:eek: ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/16 "2015-08-27T16:44:40Z")
Aren’t YOU a product of your time? I certainly am. If so, why do you assume that our CURRENT morals MUST be more correct than those of our ancestors? And why should you be more worried about how future generations will judge you than how past generations would have viewed you? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/17 "2015-11-22T06:53:40Z")
I was just reading through the page about [Buffalo Bill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Bill), and he seems to have been a very admirable person. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/18 "2015-11-22T14:32:31Z")
Seconding Spinoza. He’s always struck me as the kind of person who would’ve lived a far happier life had he been born 300 years later. But really, what you’re asking is impossible; everyone is shaped by their environment. Even a very progressive individual - say, someone who was an abolitionist in the 1400s - is still \*reacting \*to their time, and as such is a product of it. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/19 "2015-11-22T16:04:23Z")
Jeremy Bentham From his Wiki [page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham): > [@](#): > > He advocated individual and economic freedom, the separation of church and state, freedom of expression, equal rights for women, the right to divorce, and the decriminalising of homosexual acts. He called for the abolition of slavery, the abolition of the death penalty, and the abolition of physical punishment, including that of children. He has also become known in recent years as an early advocate of animal rights ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842/20 "2015-11-22T16:18:19Z")
Henry George [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-thinker-or-philosopher-who-wasnt-also-a-large-product-of-their-time/728842.md?page=2)