# Is there a way outside of a religious conversion to make people "good"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 23, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814 "2016-11-23T16:44:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/21 "2016-11-24T05:40:46Z")
I’m not religious and I believe I’m good. Well, law-abiding, anyway. As others have said, one can be good without religion, and one can be religious and still be bad. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/22 "2016-11-24T06:05:24Z")
People have to have a reason to do what you want them to do. For some, the reason often involves fear of hell or karma or some other woo. For others, the fear of social stigma is enough to make them “good”, followed by fear of prison. I know that these are the two reasons why I don’t break laws. I enjoy my life as a comfortable well-respected person too much to fuck it up. I think most people sitting in prison don’t know how it feels to be “comfortable well-respected person” without resorting to crime. If you can only imagine life one way, then of course that’s the life you’re going to have. I think rehabilitation should be focused on helping people to develop choices. We like to pretend that there are an infinite number of choices a person can make, but no. The only choices are the ones a person has been taught to value. **Urbanredneck** , I just finished a memoir entitled “Hillbilly Elegy”. If you haven’t read it, you should. The writer speaks very frankly about the mentality of the reckless and irresponsible people in his family and culture and offers some prescriptions for them. At the top of the list is the need for positive role models. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/23 "2016-11-24T08:35:58Z")
IMO, there are times in some people’s lives when they are looking for something - meaning, purpose, whatever. This condition can last a long time, and their sense of lack or fulfilment can make them behave in desperate, antisocial or ‘bad’ ways. When they find something to fill that gap (or that they feel fills the gap - it’s the same thing), their behaviour can change significantly. It happens with any number of things - religion, fan following of sports, taking up a hobby, buying a boat, travelling, getting married, etc. Sometimes that change just turns them into a new and different kind of asshole. Sometimes, it calms them right down and normal, ‘nice/good’ behaviours get a chance to surface. Sometimes it lasts; sometimes it doesn’t. Ultimately, religion or lack of religion is not responsible for an individual’s behaviour. The individual is. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/24 "2016-11-24T12:48:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > As someone who is not and never has been Christian I find it annoying and/or offensive when Christians say things that imply you can’t be a good person unless you’re a Christian first. The stupidity of it all hurts. There is a complete inability to empathize with others, to see something other than their own little world. My ultra-conservative, atheist-hating, rabid Republican, Texan-born, Fox News watching brother-in-law asked me a very similar question once about how Japanese could have good people if they weren’t Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/25 "2016-11-24T13:52:21Z")
The idea is self-contradictory. A good person is someone who, in taking responsibility for their own actions, chooses to do good things and reject bad ones. This is something the individual _does_ - not a thing that _happens to them, outside of their control_. A similar conflict exists with the notion of trying to enshrine arbitrary\* morality in law. Why does God need a human legal system to stop ‘sinful’ people doing bad things? What does that actually achieve? \*by ‘arbitrary’, I mean, where something is regarded as ‘wrong’ even though no unconsenting parties are harmed. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/26 "2016-11-24T14:08:34Z")
Good…? From Religion…? Ha…! Religion is just another bauble people use to waggle under their neighbors noses to try to prove just how much “better” they are. Its also for people who are only ever truly comfortable hiding in a packs because they just aren’t strong enough to be able stand on their own or smart enough to think for themselves… ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/27 "2016-11-24T14:43:02Z")
It is really frightening to me, how many Christian Americans openly and shamelessly admit that the only reason they are “good” is out of some fear of punishment for being bad. Maybe thats w hy America has the highest incarceration rate kn the world, and Americans need to carry guns to defend themselves from each other. And rely so heavily on the church to keep the bastards scared of eternal reprisals. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/28 "2016-11-24T15:09:31Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > No method would work 100% of the time. But the most effective, in my opinion, is to come from a stable family life with at least one parent or parent-surrogate who both loves you and who teaches you right from wrong, with appropriate punishment\* as needed. Having grown up in a family in which punishment was generally appropriate but rewards were practically nonexistant, I’d include both. Story told at some point or other: When we were in 10th grade, our HS offered these “study methods” seminars. They were available for the whole student body, but when we got there, we were all very surprised to see that every single person whose parents had signed them for it was from 10th grade, and in fact _the best students_… whose parents evidently were never satisfied. :smack: What still has us completely freaked out was that we were all from the same grade. Was there something funky in the water in 1968 which wasn’t there for parents that had kids in '66, '67 or '69? We’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/29 "2016-11-24T15:40:22Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > It is really frightening to me, how many Christian Americans openly and shamelessly admit that the only reason they are “good” is out of some fear of punishment for being bad. Maybe thats w hy America has the highest incarceration rate kn the world, and Americans need to carry guns to defend themselves from each other. And rely so heavily on the church to keep the bastards scared of eternal reprisals. This. Religion isn’t morality. It’s the antithesis of morality. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/30 "2016-11-24T16:54:31Z")
> [@MN\_Maenad](#): > > I thought one of the Nordic countries was experimenting with less-punitive incarceration and other more reform-minded programs in prisons, but I haven’t heard the results - it may be recent enough that there isn’t any long-term data yet. > > Religion doesn’t do anything to turn a bad person good. My extended family is living proof that religious people can be just as cruel as anyone non-religious. They may not be law-breakers, but they definitely aren’t “good”. Calling yourself a Christian doesn’t mean you have been converted. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/31 "2016-11-24T17:03:49Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Calling yourself a Christian doesn’t mean you have been converted. What about calling yourself a Scotsman? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/32 "2016-11-24T17:07:01Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > What about calling yourself a Scotsman? It’s no’ true. ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/33 "2016-11-24T17:14:28Z")
I have a basket load of fundamentalism in-laws. Most emphasized is one’s “personal relationship with Jesus.” Its ultimately self centered. Your actions don’t matter if you’re Right With God. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/34 "2016-11-24T18:12:32Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > What about calling yourself a Scotsman? False equivalency. Being a Scotsman has more to do with where you were born or who your parents were than anything you did yourself. Being a Christian requires belief and action. Nobody is born a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/35 "2016-11-24T18:19:11Z")
No? Then why do I keep hearing about “Christian babies”? Someone needs to tell a few Christians that religion isn’t genetic. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/36 "2016-11-24T18:25:19Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > False equivalency. Being a Scotsman has more to do with where you were born or who your parents were than anything you did yourself. Being a Christian requires belief and action. Nobody is born a Christian. Uh, you were making the claim that a person who claimed to be a Christian wasn’t necessarily one. Therefore, you were doing [this](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman) (in case you really aren’t familiar with the term.) ---
**Author:** ![LowBloow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/58956e/32.png) [@LowBloow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LowBloow)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/37 "2016-11-24T18:43:32Z")
Psychological help, education and right guidance is what is important for this people to get on the right path. Its hard ofc, a lot of these people had a hard past which loaded them emotionally and have to learn how to overcome that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/38 "2016-11-24T19:29:36Z")
For those claiming that religion is almost necessary to be “good”, do you mean _any_ religion…or are we supposed to assume that by “religion” you mean of course the one _you_ follow? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/39 "2016-11-24T20:56:10Z")
ISIS has the best religion. Ask 'em; they’ll tell ya it’s true. All the others are bad; very bad. Or so they say. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814/40 "2016-11-24T20:56:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > For those claiming that religion is almost necessary to be “good”, do you mean _any_ religion…or are we supposed to assume that by “religion” you mean of course the one _you_ follow? Well, the OP mentions “a persons salvation”, which implies (to me at least) “born again” Christians who have said the prayer found in the final panels of every Chick Tract. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-way-outside-of-a-religious-conversion-to-make-people-good/772814.md?page=3)