# Is there a "White" culture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347 "2013-06-07T01:15:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/21 "2013-06-07T08:54:54Z")
I’d like more information on your “anti-racism” seminar. My workplace occasionally has programs on diversity–since we have quite diverse employees & “clients.” Neither in these programs nor in my previous studies of anthropology & sociology have I ever encountered the term “anti-racist.” Until it showed up in a couple of recent OP’s here. An odd term, it makes as much sense to me as anti-murderer or anti-child molester. There is no\* one\* “white” culture–in the USA or elsewhere. Do you mean “high” culture, as shown on PBS & downtown where the opera, ballet & legit theatre present their wares? This stuff was created by the Famous Dead White Guys but modern performers can be black, Asian, etc. Breaking down the FDWG–you’ll note that some were Jewish or Italian or various other subsets of whiteness that have been oppressed here in the past. (And overseas in the even more recent past.) Of course, lots of modern white folks would rather watch reality TV. Or sports–which appeal to a pretty broad spectrum of Americans. To the OP: Ask your seminar leader for some cites of publications using the term “anti-racist.” So I can understand the modern use of the term in academia. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/22 "2013-06-07T10:46:11Z")
Fwiw, I think there is class culture in ‘white’ society - I sure as hell have nothing in common with the upper middle-class privilage of, say, a young Bill Gates or GWB. I do, however, share much culture experience with blue collar/working-class Blacks, Africans and Latins ---
**Author:** ![Tracijo67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@Tracijo67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracijo67)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/23 "2013-06-07T11:42:25Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I’d like more information on your “anti-racism” seminar. My workplace occasionally has programs on diversity–since we have quite diverse employees & “clients.” Neither in these programs nor in my previous studies of anthropology & sociology have I ever encountered the term “anti-racist.” Until it showed up in a couple of recent OP’s here. An odd term, it makes as much sense to me as anti-murderer or anti-child molester. > > There is no\* one\* “white” culture–in the USA or elsewhere. Do you mean “high” culture, as shown on PBS & downtown where the opera, ballet & legit theatre present their wares? This stuff was created by the Famous Dead White Guys but modern performers can be black, Asian, etc. Breaking down the FDWG–you’ll note that some were Jewish or Italian or various other subsets of whiteness that have been oppressed here in the past. (And overseas in the even more recent past.) Of course, lots of modern white folks would rather watch reality TV. Or sports–which appeal to a pretty broad spectrum of Americans. > > To the OP: Ask your seminar leader for some cites of publications using the term “anti-racist.” So I can understand the modern use of the term in academia. I can provide your the website for the organization sponsoring the training: [www.mcari.org](http://www.mcari.org). Anti-racism training has gained quite a foothold in Minnesota, particularly for government employees. It is in fact an established buzzword in my workplace; we have anti-racism committees and teams. It is meant to distinguish itself from diversity training in that it addresses institutional racism and actively plans around ways to minimize the effect while trying to eliminate it altogether. Diversity training is viewed more as a way of acknowledging and appreciating cultural differences but doesn’t address (in any meaningful way) institutional and individual racism. Since I manage a very diverse staff, I believe that it is my responsibility to educate myself and that does include understanding the historical context of white privilege and power, and my culpability in the system as it still exists today (not individual blame, as I personally feel rather powerless, but more that I do collectively benefit from it nonetheless). I am a willing participant with an open mind, but I do think where we are failing as an organization and as a society is tha people need to be very gently engaged and prepared for anti-racism work and presenters should be well-educated about avoiding the implications of blame and shame in how they present the message. It is a sensitive and incredibly powerful topic that can easily be derailed by people who are still mired in “I can’t be racist, I have black friends” or “I have no white power, I can’t even pay my own bills” mentality. My last anti-racism event, a two day training with Heather Hackman (readily googled if name not familiar) was clearly a mandatory attendance event for some employees who were likely identified as “insensitive” (at best). The defensive posturing and rage that rolled off some people was a presence all on its own. The few people who weren’t ready to listen and were overtly hostile to the message were a distraction for the white folks. Can’t even imagine what the people if color would add to that. I don’t advocate this kind if training as mandatory; in fact think that it should start with diversity training and events. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/24 "2013-06-07T12:00:34Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Fwiw, I think there is class culture in ‘white’ society - I sure as hell have nothing in common with the upper middle-class privilage of, say, a young Bill Gates or GWB. > > I do, however, share much culture experience with blue collar/working-class Blacks, Africans and Latins This. Not only would I immediately, instinctually be more afraid of a ripped white guy coming around a corner with arm tattoos and a wifebeater than I would of an average sized black man in a suit and briefcase, I probably have more culturally in common with the latter. (Even though the former is more likely to be at the music shows I go to :)) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/25 "2013-06-07T12:03:17Z")
> [@Tracijo67](#): > > I believe that how our country was founded, and why Europeans immigrated, is the basis by which some educators can convincingly argue that white Americans have no culture. I think it depends on how precisely we define culture. Our ancestors migrated with the hopes (and constitutionally defined ideals) of breaking with their own culture of oppression, even as they oppressed others. Everyone has a culture - arguing that someone or some group has _no culture_\* is like saying they speak without an accent. Everyone has a culture - the problem is that the boundaries of culture groups and skin colours are not necessarily the same anywhere. \*I mean, you can say ‘has no culture’ as an insult about someone who is generally ignorant of things considered refined, but it doesn’t mean what it literally says in that context. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/26 "2013-06-07T13:42:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > To the extent that any not-yet-fully assimilated ethnic or cultural group did not share the same attitudes, that would tend to leave them as “white” cultural traits, (even when the immigrant group is, itself, white, if not yet fully assimilated). E.g, see [_How the Irish Became White,_](http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095) by Noel Ignatiev. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/27 "2013-06-07T13:49:02Z")
If there is no such thing as race, how can there be any such thing as white culture or white privilege? We seem to go over this again and again, and never get to resolve the basic contradiction. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/28 "2013-06-07T13:58:11Z")
Race, class, gender, family and personality will always intersect in different ways. Obviously none of us are clones of some generic “African American” or “white American.” But there certainly is a white American culture. It encompasses a set of family structures, language conventions, cultural products, and even ways of viewing the world. I grew up in a lower-working-class California, and I’m now living in an upper-middle-class DC milieu, but if it weren’t for my occasional rants about class, nobody would know I wasn’t “just like them.” My name fits in. My education generally fits in. My accent fits in. My family story fits in. My playlists and bookshelf fits its. When people visit my house, my house is decorated in a way that makes sense to them. When I have a day off, I do things that make sense to them. Where we go wrong is when we often assume that we are the god-given default. We hear pleas all the time on this board for black people to stop naming their children “made-up” or “trashy” names. We hear about how any deviation from the family structure we’ve decided is “normal” will result in the downfall of society. We just often mix up “white American culture” with “normal American culture.” Power and privilege are in there, too, but in different ways. I have only once walked in to an interview and wondered what they thought about my race (it turns out it was an African-American charity that had expanded into the international field, and I would have been their first white employee.) Stuff like that does affect how you think of yourself, how you present yourself, and what you expect from others. But I’m not sure it’s entirely cultural. Any of us can take plane out to, say, Japan and get a pretty good taste of what it’s like to be a minority. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/29 "2013-06-07T14:05:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If there is no such thing as race, how can there be any such thing as white culture or white privilege? > > We seem to go over this again and again, and never get to resolve the basic contradiction. > > Regards, > Shodan Oh give it a rest. You’re not that a dumb guy and you aren’t going to lure us in to this old trap. We’ve got a good lively discussion about American culture going on here, and you are not going to turn this in to a twenty page train wreck on fast-twitch muscle and bell curves. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/30 "2013-06-07T14:07:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If there is no such thing as race, how can there be any such thing as white culture or white privilege? Because **all** of those are social constructs, and real as such. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/31 "2013-06-07T14:28:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If there is no such thing as race, how can there be any such thing as white culture or white privilege? > > We seem to go over this again and again, and never get to resolve the basic contradiction. When someone says “there’s no such thing as race”, they’re talking biology: races as genetic subsets of a species. While there can be some semantic argument over whether clinal variations can be used to define races, cultural “races” in the US (that is, white, black, etc) do not correspond to anything like possible biological races. > [@even\_sven](#): > > Race, class, gender, family and personality will always intersect in different ways. Obviously none of us are clones of some generic “African American” or “white American.” > > But there certainly is a white American culture. It encompasses a set of family structures, language conventions, cultural products, and even ways of viewing the world. I grew up in a lower-working-class California, and I’m now living in an upper-middle-class DC milieu, but if it weren’t for my occasional rants about class, nobody would know I wasn’t “just like them.” My name fits in. My education generally fits in. My accent fits in. My family story fits in. My playlists and bookshelf fits its. When people visit my house, my house is decorated in a way that makes sense to them. When I have a day off, I do things that make sense to them. > > Where we go wrong is when we often assume that we are the god-given default. We hear pleas all the time on this board for black people to stop naming their children “made-up” or “trashy” names. We hear about how any deviation from the family structure we’ve decided is “normal” will result in the downfall of society. We just often mix up “white American culture” with “normal American culture.” > > Power and privilege are in there, too, but in different ways. I have only once walked in to an interview and wondered what they thought about my race (it turns out it was an African-American charity that had expanded into the international field, and I would have been their first white employee.) Stuff like that does affect how you think of yourself, how you present yourself, and what you expect from others. But I’m not sure it’s entirely cultural. Any of us can take plane out to, say, Japan and get a pretty good taste of what it’s like to be a minority. Well said. I think the only real way for people to appreciate diversity is living somewhere where they are a minority–skin color, language, religion, politics, food staples, etc. The more different the better. You’ve got to experience it, for the disconnect and discomfort. Too many people stay too close to “home”. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/32 "2013-06-07T14:36:53Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Bingo. When we’re talking about black culture, for example, we’re generally talking about it within the context of American culture rather than the world as a whole. You can’t really look at the many types of people with black skin in Africa, the Caribbean, Latin America or Europe and lump them all into a distinct cultural group. African Americans are not the same as Afro-Caribbeans living in Great Britain. Likewise, whites in Germany, France and Norway are not all part of the same culture. Yep. There are many cultures, and they can overlap. And a persons can be a part of, or participate in, more than one at a time. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/33 "2013-06-07T14:40:09Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Oh give it a rest. You’re not that a dumb guy and you aren’t going to lure us in to this old trap. We’ve got a good lively discussion about American culture going on here, and you are not going to turn this in to a twenty page train wreck on fast-twitch muscle and bell curves. So race doesn’t exist. Fine. Then there can’t be a white culture or a black culture, because there’s no white race or black race. Right? Seriously, I don’t see any “trap” being set here - just someone noticing that saying that “there’s no such thing as race” is non-sensical. If that means race isn’t biological, but a social construct, that’s different than saying “there’s no such thing.” And it really doesn’t change the conversation. So let’s just be more precise, and also not assume anything about what someone is saying or about to say. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/34 "2013-06-07T14:42:49Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I hope I don’t betray my race by acting outside the boundaries defined to me by the color of my skin. > > Shit, one more thing to worry about. If you do, you no longer have that skin color. Your skin magically changes, chameleon-style. You know, like people who aren’t “really” black. But after that happens, you’re off the hook because you’ve left your race for a new one. So it’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/35 "2013-06-07T14:57:50Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So race doesn’t exist. > > Fine. Then there can’t be a white culture or a black culture, because there’s no white race or black race. Right? > > Seriously, I don’t see any “trap” being set here - just someone noticing that saying that “there’s no such thing as race” is non-sensical. If that means race isn’t biological, but a social construct, that’s different than saying “there’s no such thing.” And it really doesn’t change the conversation. So let’s just be more precise, and also not assume anything about what someone is saying or about to say. I don’t know about you, but **Shodan** is smart enough to completely understand the difference between race as a social category and a biological one, but that doesn’t keep him from fatuously pretending ignorance so that he can try derail the thread into his (tired, worn) pet debate. Let’s keep this focused on culture, and leave the debates about if race is “real” to some other thread (ideally, one of the fifty billion ones we’ve done in the past.) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/36 "2013-06-07T14:59:15Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I don’t know about you, but **Shodan** is smart enough to completely understand the difference between race as a social category and a biological one, but that doesn’t keep him from fatuously pretending ignorance so that he can try derail the thread into his (tired, worn) pet debate. > > Let’s keep this focused on culture, and leave the debates about if race is “real” to some other thread (ideally, one of the fifty billion ones we’ve done in the past.) Okay, if there’s a history here I’m not aware of, that’s fine. I agree that saying “race doesn’t exist” or “race is a social construct” are both pointless in this particular discussion. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/37 "2013-06-07T15:04:09Z")
> [@Tracijo67](#): > > I have been attending an anti racism seminar for the past few days. Most of what is being said is a general rehash of what I’ve already learned from previous sessions. But today we talked a little bit about cultural racism, and in essence, what culture means. Not ground-breaking stuff. But the instructor said something that did give me pause. Most of what I’ve heard (and only somewhat agree with) is that there is no white culture; we’re too far removed from our European ancestors to have maintained many of those traditions. What he said though, is that white culture is power and privilege. He is tying our history of institutional racism and race prejudice into what he calls our culture. > Thoughts? Is there such a thing as a white culture? If so, how would you define it? So the guy said there’s no white culture, then defined white culture (“power and privilege?”) He should make up his mind. And power and privilege are not a culture anyway. People like to say that race is a social construct. Well, obviously culture is a social construct. It’s only a useful tool for looking at things people have in common. But individuals are not bound by their culture, nor bound to be part of only one culture. It’s dangerous to put too much stock in culture, especially when talking about race. It threatens to reinforce the idea that race determines your identity or your behavior (in other words, racism). And it also allows someone to claim that all whites are powerful and privileged and all blacks are not, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/38 "2013-06-07T15:26:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Through work to bring materials from women’s studies into the rest of the curriculum, I have often noticed men’s unwillingness to grant that they are overprivileged, even though they may grant that women are disadvantaged. They may say they will work to women’s status, in the society, the university, or the curriculum, but they can’t or won’t support the idea of lessening men’s. Denials that amount to taboos surround the subject of advantages that men gain from women’s disadvantages. These denials protect male privilege from being fully acknowledged, lessened, or ended. > > Thinking through unacknowledged male privilege as a phenomenon, I realized that, since hierarchies in our society are interlocking, there is most likely a phenomenon of white privilege that was similarly denied and protected. As a white person, I realized I had been taught about racism as something that puts others at a disadvantage, but had been taught not to see one of its corollary aspects, white privilege, which puts me at an advantage. > > I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was “meant” to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools and blank checks. [http://ted.coe.wayne.edu/ele3600/mcintosh.html](http://ted.coe.wayne.edu/ele3600/mcintosh.html) ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/39 "2013-06-07T15:27:19Z")
> [@Tracijo67](#): > > I believe that how our country was founded, and why Europeans immigrated, is the basis by which some educators can convincingly argue that white Americans have no culture. I think it depends on how precisely we define culture. I have to say I’ve never heard a diversity instructor make a “white Americans have no culture” argument, and I work in academia and have attended plenty of diversity training events. Heck, I’ve _organized_ several diversity training events. What I’ve instead heard plenty of times is basically “everyone is ethnic” – that is, the cultural practices of white Americans aren’t universal or just “normal”, and may seem as unfamiliar to people from other cultures as their practices seem to white Americans. White American culture differs from white European culture(s) in certain ways, but that doesn’t mean we don’t _have_ a culture. It just means that there isn’t a worldwide white culture shared by all people with the same skin color, which is unsurprising. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/40 "2013-06-07T15:36:23Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > “Through work to bring materials from women’s studies into the rest of the curriculum, I have often noticed men’s unwillingness to grant that they are overprivileged, even though they may grant that women are disadvantaged. They may say they will work to women’s status, in the society, the university, or the curriculum, but they can’t or won’t support the idea of lessening men’s. Denials that amount to taboos surround the subject of advantages that men gain from women’s disadvantages. These denials protect male privilege from being fully acknowledged, lessened, or ended.” Why must it have to be a zero-sum game? In many cases, privilege (male or white) is really a right, an entitlement that all people have, that women or blacks are being denied. In those cases, it’s not necessary, and is actually unjust, to try to fix that by taking away the rights of men or whites. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347.md?page=3)