# Is there a "White" culture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347 "2013-06-07T01:15:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/41 "2013-06-07T15:36:54Z")
I’ve always found it interesting in such discussions we have several people insisting there’s no such thing as “white culture” because of the “diversity” within “whites”(surfers, southerners, bikers etc.) but no one ever makes similar claims about there is no “black culture” because of the diversity within the “black community”. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/42 "2013-06-07T15:37:47Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > White American culture differs from white European culture(s) in certain ways, but that doesn’t mean we don’t _have_ a culture. It just means that there isn’t a worldwide white culture shared by all people with the same skin color, which is unsurprising. Maybe that’s what he was trying to say - there’s not really a single white culture, but many jumbled together. Which is of course true for any culture the more you break things down. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/43 "2013-06-07T15:39:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’ve always found it interesting in such discussions we have several people insisting there’s no such thing as “white culture” because of the “diversity” within “whites”(surfers, southerners, bikers etc.) but no one ever makes similar claims about there is no “black culture” because of the diversity within the “black community”. I do make exactly that claim. (And I’ve already alluded to that in this thread more than once.) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/44 "2013-06-07T15:45:47Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > [http://ted.coe.wayne.edu/ele3600/mcintosh.html](http://ted.coe.wayne.edu/ele3600/mcintosh.html) Looking through the author’s list of privileges it would appear that the vast majority of them are simply the consequence of being part of a majority group, and would be true pretty well anywhere for any majority. The author’s conclusions - that these privileges are a major source of unfreedom and that their existence undermines “the myth of meritocracy” - are not supported. That would depend entirely on how significant these privileges actually were, in comparison with other factors. > [@](#): > > I repeatedly forgot each of the realizations on this list until I wrote it down. For me white privilege has turned out to be an elusive and fugitive subject. The pressure to avoid it is great, for in facing it I must give up the myth of meritocracy. If these things are true, this is not such a free country; ones’ life is not what one makes it; many doors open for certain people through no virtues of their own. It is no wonder people are not reacting with horror and distress the author appears to believe appropriate when it is pointed out to them that they enjoy such unearned privileges as " I can, if I wish, arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time" (the very first on her list of unearned privileges). Can’t imagine how exactly one would work towards ending that particular blatant unfreedom, other than (say) making a majority not a majority. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/45 "2013-06-07T15:49:28Z")
Yes, to further make my point, look at her list. Take the first few items: > [@](#): > > 1. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area that I can afford and in which I would want to live. > > 2. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me. > > 3. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed. Sure, blacks shouldn’t have to deal with that stuff. But does this mean that to remedy that, whites SHOULD be subjected to it? Should we eliminate white privilege by harassing whites when they shop, or making sure neighbors are nasty to them more often? Of course not. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/46 "2013-06-07T16:02:25Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sure, blacks shouldn’t have to deal with that stuff. But does this mean that to remedy that, whites SHOULD be subjected to it? While I’m sure it does happen, I’m also unconvinced that these are so prevalent that they amounts to a common event for blacks or other minorities, either. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/47 "2013-06-07T16:54:06Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Why must it have to be a zero-sum game? In many cases, privilege (male or white) is really a right, an entitlement that all people have, that women or blacks are being denied. In those cases, it’s not necessary, and is actually unjust, to try to fix that by taking away the rights of men or whites. You can stop oppressing people and treating them unfairly without oppressing someone else or treating someone else unfairly. Really, you can. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/48 "2013-06-07T16:56:18Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Where we go wrong is when we often assume that we are the god-given default. We hear pleas all the time on this board for black people to stop naming their children “made-up” or “trashy” names. We hear about how any deviation from the family structure we’ve decided is “normal” will result in the downfall of society. We just often mix up “white American culture” with “normal American culture.” It’s not necessarily a mistaken sense of what’s normal, nor is it necessarily racial. I knew a white couple who explained that they named their daughter Schuyler (the original spelling) rather than a phonetic Skylar/Skyler/etc. because they didn’t want to name her “the stripper way.” There was also this letter in The Economist, from May 22, 2008, referring to those experiments wherein the researchers send out identical resumes with different names: "SIR – Blue-collar white applicants with names like Billy Bob and Brandi would probably have suffered the same fate as a Jamal or Lakisha when pitted against an Emily or Greg, something I thought would be obvious to those who designed the study. I recently attended a ceremony at a university and was amazed at the recurrence of traditional first names; a plethora of Anns, Elizabeths, Johns and Stephens (many of them Asian-Americans) with nary a Staci, Crystal, Cody or Elvis in sight. Parents express their aspirations when they name their children, and usually get what they expect." As invested as I am in the class struggle, I don’t deny that there is a set of prescribed (and proscribed) behaviors that the middle classes take to heart. There’s “what’s normal,” and then there’s “what’s successful.” ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/49 "2013-06-07T16:58:32Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > While I’m sure it does happen, I’m also unconvinced that these are so prevalent that they amounts to a common event for blacks or other minorities, either. How do you explain this: > [@](#): > > A study released Tuesday by the American Civil Liberties Union found that African-Americans are more likely than white Americans to be arrested for marijuana possession. The study showed that in 2010 black Americans were around four times more likely to be busted for pot. > > Data gleaned from FBI Uniform Crime Reporting statistics and U.S. Census numbers show that every state except Hawaii had a higher per capita marijuana arrest rate for blacks than for whites, and the disparity appears to be growing in most states, the report says. The gap between black and white arrest rates grew in 38 states and the nation’s capital between 2001 and 2010. [http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/06/04/aclu-marijuana-study-blacks-more-likely-to-be-busted](http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/06/04/aclu-marijuana-study-blacks-more-likely-to-be-busted) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/50 "2013-06-07T17:05:59Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > You can stop oppressing people and treating them unfairly without oppressing someone else or treating someone else unfairly. Really, you can. 😃 But I don’t oppress anyone. You don’t seem to understand what “privilege” actually means. It’s not about an oppressor, it’s about those who benefit from it. So as a white person, I have an advantage due to other people’s racist behavior, or societal norms (I hate that term but I don’t have a better one) even if I didn’t ask for it. That’s the point of the idea of privilege. Obviously, if I were offered something out of oppression - for instance, someone had a “whites only” sign on a restaurant - I would refuse it. I wouldn’t patronize that restaurant. But privilege is about getting things you don’t realize are about race or sex or whatever. In many cases, it’s about getting things that everyone deserves, but not everybody gets. And that latter kind of “privilege” was what I was talking about - that to restore rights and dignity to blacks doesn’t require taking away rights or dignity from whites, nor is it just. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/51 "2013-06-07T17:08:57Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > How do you explain this: > > [http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/06/04/aclu-marijuana-study-blacks-more-likely-to-be-busted](http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/06/04/aclu-marijuana-study-blacks-more-likely-to-be-busted) Blacks use marijuana more? I mean, that’s a distinct possibility. We can’t assume that it’s all due to blacks getting picked on. Not that I’m ruling that out, of course. Just saying that you need another number - the percent of whites and blacks who use pot - for comparison. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/52 "2013-06-07T17:12:15Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But I don’t oppress anyone. > > You don’t seem to understand what “privilege” actually means. It’s not about an oppressor, it’s about those who benefit from it. So as a white person, I have an advantage due to other people’s racist behavior, or societal norms (I hate that term but I don’t have a better one) even if I didn’t ask for it. That’s the point of the idea of privilege. > > Obviously, if I were offered something out of oppression - for instance, someone had a “whites only” sign on a restaurant - I would refuse it. I wouldn’t patronize that restaurant. But privilege is about getting things you don’t realize are about race or sex or whatever. In many cases, it’s about getting things that everyone deserves, but not everybody gets. And that latter kind of “privilege” was what I was talking about - that to restore rights and dignity to blacks doesn’t require taking away rights or dignity from whites, nor is it just. My point is that it’s not about taking away rights from others to ensure that everyone has equal rights. Whether you asked for the privilege or not, you benefit from it, whether you’re able to do something about is an entirely different thing and I don’t think anyone is asking YOU to do anything, except possibility your GUILT. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/53 "2013-06-07T17:12:44Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > You can stop oppressing people and treating them unfairly without oppressing someone else or treating someone else unfairly. Really, you can. 😃 P.S. I’m not sure if I read your post right - sorry if I didn’t. Maybe you were agreeing with me. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/54 "2013-06-07T17:14:05Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Blacks use marijuana more? > > I mean, that’s a distinct possibility. We can’t assume that it’s all due to blacks getting picked on. Not that I’m ruling that out, of course. Just saying that you need another number - the percent of whites and blacks who use pot - for comparison. We know that Blacks don’t use pot anymore than Whites. Your response illustrates why these things go on, people are in denial, they don’t want to see what’s happening. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/55 "2013-06-07T17:16:55Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > My point is that it’s not about taking away rights from others to ensure that everyone has equal rights. Whether you asked for the privilege or not, you benefit from it, whether you’re able to do something about is an entirely different thing and I don’t think anyone is asking YOU to do anything, except possibility your GUILT. 😃 But that’s my point too. I think we agree. What you don’t seem to realize is that taking away something from whites, or males, or whatever is exactly what is being endorsed by many who talk about “privilege.” That’s what I was responding to in the quote you posted: > [@](#): > > Through work to bring materials from women’s studies into the rest of the curriculum, I have often noticed men’s unwillingness to grant that they are overprivileged, even though they may grant that women are disadvantaged. They may say they will work to women’s status, in the society, the university, or the curriculum, but they can’t or won’t support the idea of\*\* lessening men’s.\*\* We don’t necessarily have to lessen men’s status in order to bring women’s status up. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/56 "2013-06-07T17:19:10Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > We know that Blacks don’t use pot anymore than Whites. We do? How? I’m not saying otherwise, I’m just asking for the data. If you know it, show it. > [@](#): > > Your response illustrates why these things go on, people are in denial, they don’t want to see what’s happening. No, I DO want to see. That’s why I asked for that data. I’m not denying anything. There’s nothing to deny yet because you haven’t shown me the data. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/57 "2013-06-07T17:23:22Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > We don’t necessarily have to lessen men’s status in order to bring women’s status up. When women’s status is increased, their status in relationship to men is higher than what it was because the status of men was unjustly high to begin with. Just because you’re stronger than me and I become as strong as you, doesn’t mean you’ve been weakened but it does mean that you’re not stronger than me. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/58 "2013-06-07T17:26:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > We do? > > How? > > I’m not saying otherwise, I’m just asking for the data. If you know it, show it. > > No, I DO want to see. That’s why I asked for that data. > > I’m not denying anything. There’s nothing to deny yet because you haven’t shown me the data. Here’s a link: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/) It’s not like this information is hard to find. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/59 "2013-06-07T17:29:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If there is no such thing as race, how can there be any such thing as white culture or white privilege? Race as a biological concept is unsound. As a social concept it’s still viable. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347/60 "2013-06-07T17:35:02Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > When women’s status is increased, their status in relationship to men is higher than what it was because the status of men was unjustly high to begin with. Just because you’re stronger than me and I become as strong as you, doesn’t mean you’ve been weakened but it does mean that you’re not stronger than me. But that zero-sum game often fails in the real world. Look (again) at one of the real-world examples of white privilege from your link: > [@](#): > > 1. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area that I can afford and in which I would want to live. Assuring that blacks can live where they want and afford it doesn’t require that we lessen the ability of whites to live where they want and to afford it. Now, if you think whites feel their “status” is diminished because they can no longer look down on blacks and feel superior because they have something blacks don’t, then maybe that’s what you’re talking about. Sure, take away that “status.” But that assumes that whites feel that way in the first place. When you’re talking about policies to get rid of white privilege, like ending housing discrimination, you need only elevate blacks, not lower whites. It’s not like whites will have to give up their homes so blacks can move in or something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-white-culture/660347.md?page=4)