# Is there a word for an atheist that doesn't believe but hopes God exists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789 "2018-04-20T15:54:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/81 "2018-04-24T16:50:43Z")
When the god you believe in hides in yet-to-be-shown-to-exist “other and/or outside the universe”, then all I can say is “I’ve got better things to do.” I sincerely believe that if we had a means to explore alternate universes and found no evidence of gods, the claim would be that “GOD lives outside the multiverse!” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/82 "2018-04-24T16:54:37Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I think this is missing the point somewhat. Evidence may simply not be the right point of entry here—as I said before, not all claims are empirical in nature, and thus, claims regarding deities may not admit of refutation via evidence. > > For instance, 2 + 2 = 4. This is accepted, by pretty much everyone, to be a true statement, yet we’ve got no evidence for it at all: it’s a statement about abstract objects, not about stuff we can find out there in the physical world. (And before somebody comes with a couple of pebbles, we may also consider statements like ‘every infinite set contains an infinite proper subset’.) Actually we can prove that 2 + 2 = 4 from the axiomatic definition of mathematics. There are assumptions - 0 and a successor function such that Succ(0) = 1, succ (1) = 2 etc. The axioms are clearly specified. 2+2 = 4 does not require 4 pebbles to be demonstrated. > [@](#): > > So I can assert it without evidence, but it can’t be dismissed on those grounds. In principle, I think one should be open to the possibility that propositions about god could be of a similar form—born out by logical necessity, not merely by evidence; only the contingent requires evidence, and god (most gods, at any rate) is typically considered a necessary being. > > That’s the trust of things like the ontological argument and its ilk. Those may all fail (and I believe they do), but that doesn’t exclude the possibility that some such argument might exist that is successful (which, to me, would go a great deal farther towards convincing me of the existence of god than any number of miracles and magic tricks). That someday someone might come up with a proof of god’s existence is pretty weak tea. And the god derived from this proof almost certainly has nothing to do with any god humans have ever worshiped. So it wouldn’t do us much good. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/83 "2018-04-24T17:35:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Actually we can prove that 2 + 2 = 4 from the axiomatic definition of mathematics. There are assumptions - 0 and a successor function such that Succ(0) = 1, succ (1) = 2 etc. The axioms are clearly specified. 2+2 = 4 does not require 4 pebbles to be demonstrated. I’m not sure, but I think that might have been **HMHW** ’s point. Mathematical truths aren’t based on evidence, but on deductive reasoning that is ultimately based on mutually-agreed-upon axioms. So evidence is “not the right point of entry.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/84 "2018-04-24T17:46:07Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I am not so sure that calling that person an idiot is entirely fair. Because it is essentially upon the faithful to support their claim, not on the unbeliever to provide substantive negatives. It is on the believer to prove there is a Deity , yes, just as much as it is on the strong Atheist to prove they have proof there is no Deity. If the weak atheist simply says “Well, you have your faith and that’s fine- but there has been no evidence that convinces me there is a Deity, thus I choose to not believe” that’s very reasonable. But to say “I KNOW there is no Deity” is the same as “I KNOW there is a Deity”. Both have proclaimed they **know** the unknowable. Both are working on faith, not knowledge. That is why sometimes people say Strong Atheism approaches a type of religion- it is , after all- “faith based”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/85 "2018-04-24T17:57:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It is on the believer to prove there is a Deity , yes, just as much as it is on the strong Atheist to prove they have proof there is no Deity. > > If the weak atheist simply says “Well, you have your faith and that’s fine- but there has been no evidence that convinces me there is a Deity, thus I choose to not believe” that’s very reasonable. > > But to say “I KNOW there is no Deity” is the same as “I KNOW there is a Deity”. Both have proclaimed they **know** the unknowable. Both are working on faith, not knowledge. That is why sometimes people say Strong Atheism approaches a type of religion- it is , after all- “faith based”. Please describe to the best of your ability the deity you want disproven, and the place it resides(so that we know where to look and what to disprove). Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/86 "2018-04-24T17:57:57Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > No. Plenty of conceptions of gods exist that interact with the world without leaving an empirically accessible trail. Think of the doctrine of occasionalism, for instance: everything, every event, is directly caused by god. God is the sole foundation of all that ever occurs; so you couldn’t possibly interact more with the world. Yet there’s no empirical evidence of this god—you can only know him through recognition of the fact that he is the sole cause of all that occurs. Then you are through the rabbit hole. This is circular reasoning of he weakest kind, the lack of any evidence for god becomes evidence for god. You assume that god must be the cause for anything that occurs and then point to the fact that something has occurred as evidence for the existence of god and no empirical evidence can be gathered because…just because. This fails at the first hurdle, look… > [@](#): > > every event, is directly caused by god. evidence for that assertion? > [@](#): > > God is the sole foundation of all that ever occurs evidence for that assertion? This is so bad that it isn’t even wrong. It’s bullshit, don’t waste my time. You would only come up with such drivel if you were forced, by the nature of the world as we experience it, to come up with a magic way for an interventionist god to exist in world that appears to function without that assumption. The more parsimonious explanation simply works without the god. The same goes for the other examples, tortuous, circular obscurantist bollocks. Linguistic word games that assert what they seek to establish and that wouldn’t look out of place scribbled on toilet paper with a crayon. They are what passes for “clever” and “deep” in the world of theology. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/87 "2018-04-24T17:58:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It is on the believer to prove there is a Deity , yes, just as much as it is on the strong Atheist to prove they have proof there is no Deity. > > If the weak atheist simply says “Well, you have your faith and that’s fine- but there has been no evidence that convinces me there is a Deity, thus I choose to not believe” that’s very reasonable. > > But to say “I KNOW there is no Deity” is the same as “I KNOW there is a Deity”. Both have proclaimed they **know** the unknowable. Both are working on faith, not knowledge. That is why sometimes people say Strong Atheism approaches a type of religion- it is , after all- “faith based”. The theist must have faith due to the lack of evidence. The strong atheist has belief, not faith, also due to lack of evidence for any god. And again. kindly point me to all these atheists who claim to know there is no god. Even Dawkins’ bus advertisement said words to the effect that we are pretty sure there is no god, not that we know it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/88 "2018-04-24T18:06:27Z")
I truly do love arguments of this sort, it reminds of the old religious ‘debate’ about “how many angels could dance on the head of a pin”. Since it is nearly impossible to come to some agreement on terminology (see the rest of the thread for evidence), it devolves to each stating what their current level of…God belief…is. For me, I like to consider myself an Agnostic Areligionist. That is, there may be a central guiding purpose to the universe that we have yet to discern that, for lack of any better term, we could call “God”, but to think that any religion, past, present, or future can delve into and ‘read’ the mind of God in terms of what we should be doing is patently ridiculous. If “God” exists, He/She/It/They/Pick your own pronoun would likely point and laugh (if they took any interest at all, which I am skeptical of) and our multitude of faiths. IMHO as always. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/89 "2018-04-24T18:12:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Please describe to the best of your ability the deity you want disproven, and the place it resides(so that we know where to look and what to disprove). > Thank you. All of them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/90 "2018-04-24T18:30:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > All of them. Please name off the gods you want disproved, otherwise you can just say, “Well about _this_ one?” if I happen to miss one. Holy shit, do you even realize how nonsensical your request is? Not only do you refuse a simple request to let us know what it is you want disproved, you multiply your stubbornness by untold thousands by asking for disproofs of untold thousands of undescribed deities. Would you next have me count all the stars, including the ones yet to be found? If you are incapable of describing to the best of your ability the attributes and whereabouts of just one deity, just say so. In the meantime, would you mind leaving those goalposts in the same galaxy you found them in? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/91 "2018-04-24T18:31:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m sorry if different atheists have different opinions about different subjects. Maybe we should organize and form a church or something so that all atheists could reach a consensus on what we believe about various subjects-That way we could tell you the one official opinion on any/all subjects. I think the only thing you could get any two atheists to agree on is that there is no need to invoke the supernatural in order to explain the universe. > [@DrDeth](#): > > All of them. That’s too many, it’ll take some time. Hindu alone has millions. Many Pantheons have quite a number, in fact. Tell ya what, we’ll split up the work. You prove that Zeus doesn’t exist, and I’ll prove that all the others don’t as well. Seems fair, I’m doing 99.9999999% of the work. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/92 "2018-04-24T18:37:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It is on the believer to prove there is a Deity , yes, just as much as it is on the strong Atheist to prove they have proof there is no Deity. > > If the weak atheist simply says “Well, you have your faith and that’s fine- but there has been no evidence that convinces me there is a Deity, thus I choose to not believe” that’s very reasonable. > > But to say “I KNOW there is no Deity” is the same as “I KNOW there is a Deity”. Both have proclaimed they **know** the unknowable. Both are working on faith, not knowledge. That is why sometimes people say Strong Atheism approaches a type of religion- it is , after all- “faith based”. No, again, the believer needs to provide a legitimate reason for a deity to exist. That is the tallest hurdle. Why should there be an Og? At this point, we see that the unexplainable is all but infinite, so any explanation of the unexplainable needs to have that justifying foundation. So far, there is only “because” or “I can feel it”, which are nowhere near adequate. Hence, to say that there is no deity is the only valid position until someone comes up will an unassailable argument for why the should be one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/93 "2018-04-24T18:41:39Z")
If God IS the universe, and yet resides outside of the universe, does that mean the universe exists outside of the universe? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/94 "2018-04-24T19:00:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > All of them. That’s about as asinine as asking for someone to solve all mathematical equations with the same formula, then declaring after being told that it can’t be done “So you _can’t_ solve any mathematical equations, can you?” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/95 "2018-04-24T19:01:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Please name off the gods you want disproved, otherwise you can just say, “Well about _this_ one?” if I happen to miss one. > Holy shit, do you even realize how nonsensical your request is? Not only do you refuse a simple request to let us know what it is you want disproved, you multiply your stubbornness by untold thousands by asking for disproofs of untold thousands of undescribed deities. Would you next have me count all the stars, including the ones yet to be found? Well, you see, in order to prove the no gods exist, you have to disprove all of them, no? And I expect, that if I named one, say the Christian Deity, you’d simple come up with something like making a burrito so big He couldn’t eat it nonsense. Which of course doesnt disprove that Deity, just some few peoples idea of that deity. Isn’t it your position that no deities exist? Do you have any proof of that? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/96 "2018-04-24T19:02:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I > > Tell ya what, we’ll split up the work. You prove that Zeus doesn’t exist, and I’ll prove that all the others don’t as well. > > . Zeus may well exist, altho I am doubtful. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/97 "2018-04-24T19:05:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s about as asinine as asking for someone to solve all mathematical equations with the same formula, then declaring after being told that it can’t be done “So you _can’t_ solve any mathematical equations, can you?” Start with Zeus. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/98 "2018-04-24T19:05:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, you see, in order to prove the no gods exist, you have to disprove all of them, no? > > And I expect, that if I named one, say the Christian Deity, you’d simple come up with something like making a burrito so big He couldn’t eat it nonsense. Which of course doesnt disprove that Deity, just some few peoples idea of that deity. Even when you supply both sides of the argument, you can’t get the facts straight. :rolleyes: I didn’t ask you to just name a deity-I asked you to describe it to the best of your ability and tell us where it resides, so that we know what it is that is being disproved and where we can look for it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/99 "2018-04-24T19:11:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Even when you supply both sides of the argument, you can’t get the facts straight. :rolleyes: > I didn’t ask you to just name a deity-I asked you to describe it to the best of your ability and tell us where it resides, so that we know what it is that is being disproved and where we can look for it. And I gave you a name. Zeus. Google it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789/100 "2018-04-24T19:12:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Start with Zeus. Give me a description to the best of your ability, and where he resides. Ghoddamn! What is so hard about this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-an-atheist-that-doesnt-believe-but-hopes-god-exists/812789.md?page=6)