# Is there a word for noticeable empty diagonal space in text? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 10, 2011, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154 "2011-03-10T11:12:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/21 "2011-03-11T17:53:30Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That’s a product of justification > and (usually) smaller columns. > **The lexicographical** > alternative would be to do > something like the green line > above, which is generally con- > sidered worse. You included hyphenation in your example, which is the best way to eliminate the problem. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/22 "2011-03-11T18:19:32Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Oh, so it’s pronounced “ledding,” not “leeding.” I had assumed it was named for coming above a line of text, and hence “leading” it. Yes, that’s how I’ve always heard it pronounced, although it wouldn’t surprise me if people do say “leeding.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/23 "2011-03-11T18:56:49Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You included hyphenation in your example, which is the best way to eliminate the problem. True. I thought of that half way through and planned on including a disclaimer at the bottom, but forgot. I had to tweak my wording many times to get the fake justification to look right, and I couldn’t think of a long enough word that meant ‘‘often used.’’ > [@pulykamell](#): > > Yes, that’s how I’ve always heard it pronounced, although it wouldn’t surprise me if people do say “leeding.” Well, I’ve never heard it pronounced, myself. I’ve only read about it. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/24 "2011-03-11T19:27:01Z")
Anybody remember Camex machines? Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/25 "2011-03-12T01:12:33Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Oh, so it’s pronounced “ledding,” not “leeding.” I had assumed it was named for coming above a line of text, and hence “leading” it. > That’s a product of justification > and (usually) smaller columns. > **The lexicographical** > alternative would be to do > something like the green line > above, which is generally con- > sidered worse. I agree, that is WAY worse! ---
**Author:** ![ChrisBooth12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@ChrisBooth12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisBooth12)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/26 "2011-03-12T03:03:36Z")
Ex-printer here, they are called rivers and are bad design. No designer should let them look that way, changing the type set or letter spacing by a small ammount can fix them and not make anything look different. The only time I saw them and they looked good was when the background had designs that flowed through them. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/27 "2011-03-13T03:54:05Z")
I’ve always heard it as left-justified vs. ranged left. Cry me a river. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/28 "2011-03-13T05:06:40Z")
I’m such a type geek, I even have my toilet set up that way: “Flush Left/Rag Right”. [helv italic] _::rimshot::_ [/helv italic] And of course it’s “ledding”, because the extra space between lines of metal type used to be achieved with strips of LEAD. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/29 "2011-03-14T09:21:11Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > Isn’t font specific to the size, as well? I was under the impression that, in typesetting terminology, “12pt Arial Bold” would be a font, and “18pt Arial Bold” would be another. Nope, ‘Arial Bold’ is the font. ‘12pt Arial Bold’ is the font _size_. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/30 "2011-03-14T09:44:28Z")
I vaguely remember hearing that the old rule about inserting two spaces after a period was originally intended to avoid “rivers” in typewritten manuscripts. Is that true? ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/31 "2011-03-14T09:53:30Z")
There’s something strangely beautiful and soothing about this discussion 🙂 Hmm. I shall use this opportunity for a slight hijack: Why do typefaces need different fonts for bolding and italics? What’s wrong with the computer-bolded (faux bold?) or italicized versions? ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/32 "2011-03-14T11:02:09Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I vaguely remember hearing that the old rule about inserting two spaces after a period was originally intended to avoid “rivers” in typewritten manuscripts. Is that true? Well, sort of. It’s because typewriters used monospaced typefaces, which create odd and large spaces in text – if you think of how a letter ‘m’ and a letter ‘i’ sit in the same width space, you can imagine how this would create odd wide spaces in the text. Putting two spaces after a sentence therefore makes it more obvious for the reader that it’s the end of a sentence, rather than just a weirdly wide space within a sentence. I’m not sure I explained that right. Hope it makes some sense. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/33 "2011-03-14T11:06:15Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Hmm. I shall use this opportunity for a slight hijack: > Why do typefaces need different fonts for bolding and italics? What’s wrong with the computer-bolded (faux bold?) or italicized versions? Because they look better. Computer bolding is pretty crude: it just thickens the strokes indiscriminately (or nearly so), whereas a properly designed bold font will have the stroke widths tweaked for maximum readability, and may also subtly alter the letter shapes themselves where needed. Similarly, computer italics are created by simply slanting the roman letter forms. Proper italics usually have significantly different forms, particularly the letter “a” which in the italic version is usually a “single-storey” form rather than double-storey. The letter “f” is also rather different, and all the letters tend to have a more curvy form, as seen below: Roman font _Italic font_ The differences are usually more pronounced in serifed fonts: Roman font _Italic font_ ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/34 "2011-03-14T11:10:40Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > There’s something strangely beautiful and soothing about this discussion 🙂 > > Hmm. I shall use this opportunity for a slight hijack: > Why do typefaces need different fonts for bolding and italics? What’s wrong with the computer-bolded (faux bold?) or italicized versions? Because when you use, for example, the computer-bolding thing, it’s a bit like just adding a keyline around the text to make it ‘fatter’ and can create all sorts of ugly blobby effects on certain letters. Whereas a specifically designed bold font will make subtle adjustments to the strokes on certain letters to avoid any blobby bits and type clashes (where two letters touch each other). So the overall effect is much smarter/more seamless. Similarly, using artificial italics is akin to squashing the font sideways – the font looks crushed and letters start to clash. Specially designed italics will avoid this affect, and also entirely redesign certain letters to make them fit more neatly. Upright (roman) letters are often entirely different from sloping (italic) ones. [Here are some examples](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_type#Examples). Think of it like hitting a font with a hammer (for italics) or pumping it up with a footpump (bold) and I think you can start to imagine how ugly that could look. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/35 "2011-03-14T11:16:51Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Because they look better. Computer bolding is pretty crude: it just thickens the strokes indiscriminately (or nearly so), whereas a properly designed bold font will have the stroke widths tweaked for maximum readability, and may also subtly alter the letter shapes themselves where needed. > > Similarly, computer italics are created by simply slanting the roman letter forms. Proper italics usually have significantly different forms, particularly the letter “a” which in the italic version is usually a “single-storey” form rather than double-storey. The letter “f” is also rather different, and all the letters tend to have a more curvy form, as seen below: > > Roman font > _Italic font_ > > The differences are usually more pronounced in serifed fonts: > > Roman font > _Italic font_ Snap! ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/36 "2011-03-14T14:01:16Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I actually \*like \*rivers. (Didn’t know the name for them, thanks!) I can’t really explain why, it’s another way of engaging with the text - almost literally. There’s a sensuousness to discovering a river on a page that connects me with the book on a participatory level. I know it wasn’t intentional, but it somehow draws my attention - in a comfortable way - to the task of typesetting and the notion that this book in my hand was the work of many people, and I appreciate that personal connection. They’re almost an “in-joke” between me and the writers, editors, typesetters, binders, etc. They make me feel like I’m part of an experience, not simply a passive absorber of content. > > It’s pretty meta, huh? And probably not a widespread feeling, so I can see why typesetters (who prefer to be invisible) would try to avoid it. Yeah, I might occasionally sigh a little inside when I think that most of what I do is going to be neither noticed nor appreciated by anyone who reads what I’ve typeset, but if anyone _were_ to notice, I’d really rather it was for something I’d done _right_. 😃 I suppose now I know how a potter feels when he sees people preferring to buy chunky, lop-sided jugs with holes in the glaze, because they “look more hand-made”. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/37 "2011-03-14T14:11:01Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > Yeah, I might occasionally sigh a little inside when I think that most of what I do is going to be neither noticed nor appreciated by anyone who reads what I’ve typeset, but if anyone _were_ to notice, I’d really rather it was for something I’d done _right_. 😃 > > I suppose now I know how a potter feels when he sees people preferring to buy chunky, lop-sided jugs with holes in the glaze, because they “look more hand-made”. True. But in defense of my love for rivers, I didn’t know until this thread that it was “wrong”, or something that typesetters struggle to avoid. Is it wrong to appreciate a chunky lop-sided jug because you enjoy texture and asymmetry? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/38 "2011-03-14T14:49:53Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > **Type families** > _Typeface_ = a family of fonts (e.g. ‘Arial’) > _Font_ = an individual member of a typeface (e.g. ‘Arial Bold’) > [@SanVito](#): > > Nope, ‘Arial Bold’ is the font. ‘12pt Arial Bold’ is the font _size_. No, the font _size_ is just “12 point” by itself. **Family of typefaces** = a family of typefaces in various weights and other variations (Arial Narrow, Arial Bold, etc.) **Typeface** = a particular member of that family (Arial Bold) **Font** = a display of \*all \*the characters in a specific typeface, weight, and size (ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 0123456789 …) ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/39 "2011-03-14T15:03:22Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > No, the font _size_ is just “12 point” by itself. > > **Family of typefaces** = a family of typefaces in various weights and other variations (Arial Narrow, Arial Bold, etc.) > **Typeface** = a particular member of that family (Arial Bold) > **Font** = a display of \*all \*the characters in a specific typeface, weight, and size > (ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 0123456789 …) In the world of metal type, both handset and line-cast, you’d have been correct up until ‘font’. A font was/is the physical set of objects that make an entire typeface. So, in terms of handset, you’d have a font of type. For linecasters, you’d have a font of matrices (or mats, abbreviated). Many of the ‘big name’ typographers working today, especially those that started in the days of lead, consider a font to be the actual computer file that instructs the printer how to draw a typeface. So a typeface describes what you see, the style, or design if you will, and a font us what you need to use that style. There is not 100% agreement on this, but it is the closest analogue to the system in which the terms were developed. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154/40 "2011-03-14T15:24:33Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > In the world of metal type, both handset and line-cast, you’d have been correct up until ‘font’. A font was/is the physical set of objects that make an entire typeface. So, in terms of handset, you’d have a font of type. For linecasters, you’d have a font of matrices (or mats, abbreviated). > > Many of the ‘big name’ typographers working today, especially those that started in the days of lead, consider a font to be the actual computer file that instructs the printer how to draw a typeface. So a typeface describes what you see, the style, or design if you will, and a font us what you need to use that style. There is not 100% agreement on this, but it is the closest analogue to the system in which the terms were developed. I suppose I learned my terminology in reference to one of the steps that came in between metal type and computerized type … phototypography. That has neither physical objects nor digital code, but rather a display of the type on film. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for-noticeable-empty-diagonal-space-in-text/574154.md?page=3)