# Is there a word for... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 20, 2000, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033 "2000-06-20T20:39:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wolfseyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/97f17d/32.png) [@wolfseyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfseyn)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/1 "2000-06-20T20:39:33Z")
Can someone clear up the name game for me? If your name is the same as your father’s (mothers and daughters too??), your name is suffixed with Jr. (Junior, duh!) Your father would be Senior. Unless of course there was a previous generation of Tom Dick Harrisons. My questions are: What do you call a person who has the same name as his father? If he was the VIIth (7th) of the Tom Dick Harrisons would you say “yeah, Tom’s a Junior” Can mother’s and daughters do this? Jill Mary Bethinson, Jr.? Does the suffix II (the second) mean the same as Junior? or Does it go Jr, II, III. Which doesn’t make sense, since Tom Dick Harrison, Jr. would be the second Tom Dick Harrison, right? ---
**Author:** ![jayron\_32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/41988e/32.png) [@jayron\_32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayron_32)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/2 "2000-06-20T20:45:00Z")
As far as I know, the standard is to go Sr., Jr., III, IV, etc. I have known very few II’s in my life, but many Jr.'s. A II is often the grandson of someone with the same name. Since the grandfather is still alive, a distinction is made, but since it’s not the son of the former, it can’t be a “Jr.” I may be mistaken, but I always thought that Henry Ford II was the grandson of Henry Ford. ---
**Author:** ![Gunslinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gunslinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gunslinger)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/3 "2000-06-20T20:47:22Z")
I never gave it that much thought…I know a guy that goes by “Trey” because he’s “D.W. III”, and an “Ivey”–(name) the fourth–IV–pronounced phonetically. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/4 "2000-06-20T20:49:24Z")
I had always heard that Jr. was if your named after your father, but II(the second) was if you were named after someone in your family, but not your father, like an uncle or Grandpa. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/5 "2000-06-20T20:51:42Z")
Of course, you only count the living. When “Senior” dies, everyone gets a promotion; Junior becomes senior, III becomes junior, etc. I’m not certain whether this happens immediately, or after some period of mourning. ---
**Author:** ![Wood\_Thrush](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@Wood\_Thrush](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wood_Thrush)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/6 "2000-06-20T21:18:19Z")
**ZenBeam** , are you sure? How would one refer to one’s ancestors if one were the seventh person sharing the given name? I am [name removed] IV, but only my father is alive today. I always thought Sr. and Jr. are used when there are only two people who had that name; it becomes I, II, and III once three people share a given name. I don’t believe it will work with females, since, after all, their name changes when they get married. And they can’t respecably have decendants unless they were married. We need some sources so we can settle this. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/7 "2000-06-20T21:21:47Z")
I think the problem here is that there are no written sources on how to indicated generational numbers. It’s just a custom that’s been passed down to us since people started using surnames. I’ve seen women use “Jr.”, but not very often and it’s usually an affectation. Then again, I think in males, it’s sort of an affectation. There are rules for numbering monarchs and popes, but for the rest of us in the lumpen proletariate, just try your best. ---
**Author:** ![wolfseyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/97f17d/32.png) [@wolfseyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfseyn)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/8 "2000-06-20T21:42:00Z")
I’d like to search for this information, but I need to know: Is there a word for “the art of Name calling” or somthing similar. ---
**Author:** ![Guy\_Propski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Guy\_Propski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guy_Propski)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/9 "2000-06-20T21:44:34Z")
In casual conversation, you would only use numbers for the living Toms; e.g., if Gramps and Dad are both alive, then you are Tom IIIrd, Dad is Jr. (or IInd), and Gramps is senior. If you’re talking about the generations of Toms (lets say you’re writing a book on your family), then you number them all, with the first Tom being Tom Ist, his son Tom IInd, and so on. Of course, you always run into the cutesy family nicknames, like “Sonny”, “Trey”, “T.J.” (for Tom Jr.), and so on. What it really boils down to is that, within the family, you can use whatever nicknames you like, but you should use the formal terms when speaking with people outside the family. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/10 "2000-06-20T22:06:02Z")
Miss Manners take on this (so far as I remember it without looking it up) is that the use of Roman numerals (II, III, IV) ought to be limited to monarchs. And Queen Elizabeth I did not become Queen Elizabeth I until there was a Queen Elizabeth II. So if you’re not of the “blood royal,” she prefers “Sr., Jr., 3rd, 4th,” and everybody moves up a step when “Sr.” dies. Apparently, she’s not too sympathetic to people who want to indicate to the world that they are the thirteenth Norbert Covington Smythe in the family. And, IIRC, “Jr.” is for the son of senior, but “2nd” is for a nephew or other relation, not a son, named after “Sr.” And, II further RC, “Sr.” is only used to differentiate that person from “Jr.” etc. Otherwise, if such differentiation is not necessary, the oldest name-holder is just “Norbert Covington Smythe (no “Sr.”)” Obviously not everyone will agree with this. My father is styles himself as “Jr.” even though my grandfather passed away years ago. My brother is “3rd” and his expected baby, should it be a boy, will be “4th.” ---
**Author:** ![ChiefScott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@ChiefScott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChiefScott)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/11 "2000-06-20T22:14:51Z")
“ought to be” Not that it _is_. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/12 "2000-06-20T22:15:59Z")
Here is what I found in Elson Smith’s “The Story of Our Names”, published in 1950. > [@](#): > > Correctly, one is a junior only when he has either a living father of the same name, or a living grandfather of the same name who has no living son of the same name. When a grandson bears Jr. his cousins, born later and given the same name, are 2nd. There may be more than one 2nd of the same generation. One is never a Jr. unless his father’s or grandfather’s name is exactly the same. If the father is James Whitney Burch and the son is James William Burch, the son does not add the suffix Jr. > > When the father, or grandfather dies, the Jr. is dropped. If John Smith has both a father and a grandfather of the same name, he is John Smith III; when the grandfather dies, the III becomes Jr. Commodore Allen George Quynn lists a son, Allen George VIII, in his sketch in Who’s Who in America, although he refrains from alluding to himself as VII. If John Smith’s father is William Smith and his grandfather is John Smith, but the grandfather has a living son, the grandson is John Smith II and not Jr. The English always use 2nd or 3rd in the belief that II or III is the prerogative of royalty. When one is named for an uncle he is 2nd or II and never Jr. Junior always denotes a descendant. The terms Jr. and II seldom mean the same thing and can be used interchangeably only when a man is the only one named after his grandfather. Confused? Tired? There is an even longer explanation about women with this system and when widows are supposed to use senior and junior. ---
**Author:** ![Wood\_Thrush](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@Wood\_Thrush](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wood_Thrush)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/13 "2000-06-20T22:25:35Z")
So my name is [name removed] Jr. and not [name removed] IV? I’m kinda proud of the _IV_. ---
**Author:** ![sliv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@sliv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sliv)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/14 "2000-06-21T00:45:23Z")
Speaking as a “IV” myself, I too am rather fond of it. Though it did make family reunions with Me, My Paw, and Gramps somewhat awkward… ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/15 "2000-06-21T13:31:15Z")
I had a friend named FLB II. His father was FLB I. They just didn’t like the sound of junior and senior. Aside: “Cruise” is not Tom Cruise’s original last name. (I suppose he goes by it because it’s sexier-sounding.) But it _is_ his original middle name. As a matter of fact, he’s Thomas Cruise Mapother IV. Did someone in his family decide on this middle name in the future hope that if one of them went into movies, they’d have a sexy middle name to use as a surname? :D:D ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/16 "2000-06-21T13:32:56Z")
I guess it’s a good thing that the Pope serves until he dies. Otherwise, the current Pope would be John Paul Jr. :D:D ---
**Author:** ![jcarbon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d78d45/32.png) [@jcarbon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcarbon)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/17 "2000-06-21T13:45:00Z")
I think the next pope should pick George Ringo I, since we’ve already had 2 John Pauls. Or maybe he could be Dave Clark V? ---
**Author:** ![ATTGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@ATTGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ATTGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/18 "2000-06-21T17:40:28Z")
I think you can call yourself whatever you want. If Prince can have a non-letter/number name, why can’t you be a IV? ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-word-for/23033/19 "2000-06-21T18:00:12Z")
There was a political incident about 224 years ago here in America that allows my father to be a “II” and me to be a “III.” Says so on our birth certificates. Incidentally, Guy, Dad is “Sonny” and I’m “Trey.” I thank the powers that be that I didn’t draw the nickname “Cher.”