# Is there actually a way to kill someone and leave no sign of it being a murder? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 14, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087 "2016-02-14T03:02:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/41 "2016-02-14T19:38:54Z")
If you can get them to go boating with you they can always fall overboard. Drowning looks exactly like drowning. You may even have the bonus of the body not being recovered at all. As long as nobody else knows you both went out together that day and there’s no surveillance video anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/42 "2016-02-14T19:47:17Z")
If what I’ve been told by Forensic Files is true, then succinylcholine poisoning is almost completely undetectable because it degrades within a matter of minutes after injection and leaves no telltale by-products. Of course, they’ve only mentioned in cases where people got _caught_ using succinylcholine as a murder weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/43 "2016-02-14T19:56:25Z")
I came here to mention succinylcholine too, but the murderer would have to have access (either to the manufacturer or as a hospital worker with a code to the pharm dispenser). Alternatively, you could stab someone in the chest with a blade made of ice. When the ice melts, the evidence disappears. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/44 "2016-02-14T20:05:14Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > As long as nobody else knows you both went out together that day and there’s no surveillance video anywhere. And make sure you leave your cellphone at home. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/45 "2016-02-14T20:22:57Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Alternatively, you could stab someone in the chest with a blade made of ice. When the ice melts, the evidence disappears. A stab wound in the chest is a pretty good indication of it being a murder, even if the weapon is never found. I think the OP was referring to methods of murder that makes it look like a natural death. It doesn’t necessarily need to fool an autopsy. If there is no indication of foul play, there won’t even be an autopsy. (Though I suppose if a young healthy person suddenly drops dead, that may be considered enough of an indication of foul play.) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/46 "2016-02-14T20:32:00Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > That guy was an idiot. He used a card to purchase the woodchipper, not cash, and he just used it near the road, he didn’t drive deep into the woods and do it? Had he paid in cash, their would be no connection to him and he wouldn’t have been convicted without a body. It’s possible to be convicted of murder without the body ever being found. It’s harder, is all. > **[Murder conviction without a body](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_conviction_without_a_body)** > > It is possible to convict someone of murder without the purported victim's body in evidence. However, cases of this type have historically been hard to prove, often forcing the prosecution to rely on circumstantial evidence, and in England there was for centuries a mistaken view that in the absence of a body a killer could not be tried for murder. Developments in forensic science in recent decades have made it more likely that a murder conviction can be obtained even if a body has not been fou... ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/47 "2016-02-14T20:32:10Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > This is very unlikely to work even in the US. Even PCP and bath salts don’t work that way, the victim is likely to immediately drop the fake gun and go wander off aimlessly staring at reflections of coloured lights or start ranting about what the machine elves are saying to him. They will probably end up arrested and being given a psych assessment, dead probably not. Isn’t that basically what Charles Manson did with LSD? ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/48 "2016-02-14T20:33:27Z")
How about cremation? ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/49 "2016-02-14T20:38:19Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > If you can wait 6 months, you can inject some rabies vaccine. . What? Why would a rabies vax that doesn’t kill a 1lb kitten kill a human in 6 months? ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/50 "2016-02-14T20:42:16Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > A guy’s wife died in a car crash. Local cops agreed that the cause of death was the crash. > > He sued Ford claiming that her death was caused by the airbag. Ford determined that she was murdered and the local cops agree. However they did not think they had enough evidence to put him on trial. He could eventually go on trial. > > Moral of the story , if you kill someone don’t sue a giant corporation about it. My mom just read a book about this case. Here’s an [article](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95250)about the case. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/51 "2016-02-14T20:46:32Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > How about cremation? Crematoriums keep track. If you’re thinking “burn body in back yard”, you’ve watched way too many TV shows and tacky movies. The temperatures and oxygen requirements to “completely” burn an adult human require some heavy-duty equipment. And you still have “cremains” to destroy/hide. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/52 "2016-02-14T20:50:12Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > Don’t you watch Law and Order? First amendment and an alibi will protect your responses. You might be right or you might be wrong. I guess we’ll know if anyone dies and if process servers/subpoenas ever show up at the Chicago Reader. INAL, but I’m confident that every effort would be made to protect your IP address / identity, because even if you could be charged with being an Accessory to Murder or part of a conspiracy to commit murder with premeditation, a poster is innocent until proven guilty… …or my name isn’t Joe Isuzu. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/53 "2016-02-14T20:56:47Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Push 'em off a cliff. [Life in prison](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/colorado-man-sentenced-life-pushing-wife-death-cliff-n476726) Pretty good evidence that he did it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/54 "2016-02-15T01:45:40Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > People fall off cliffs inadvertently all the time. There are many scenic cliffs along the sea coast in California that aren’t all that stable, especially after a rain. > > “Did he jump, did he fall, did a spot of cliff give way, or was he pushed?” is a tough question to answer definitively in the absence of witnesses. Once again, _Law & Order_, but can’t they sometimes tell by the way they landed if they were pushed vs. fell/jumped? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/55 "2016-02-15T02:24:59Z")
IANA expert in this. I’d suggest that more often the investigation is inconclusive, but might lead them to think foul play is more likely than not. It’s not going to be TV-conclusive except in cases like the victim was stabbed & tossed off the cliff & the dumb bad guy assumed the fall would destroy the evidence. But it didn’t. And if foul play is _suspected_, the cops then corner the likely suspects and overplay the evidence hoping to get a confession, or at least additional incriminating evidence. And \*that’s \*what closes the case. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/56 "2016-02-15T02:58:29Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Crematoriums keep track. > > If you’re thinking “burn body in back yard”, you’ve watched way too many TV shows and tacky movies. > > The temperatures and oxygen requirements to “completely” burn an adult human require some heavy-duty equipment. > > And you still have “cremains” to destroy/hide. That’s why you get a job at a crematorium a year before hand. Also would a veterinarians’ work? As for the cremains I believe the deceased wanted his ashes spread at sea. Or you could always burry them. Dust is hard to distinguish from dirt. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/57 "2016-02-15T03:24:43Z")
Do they inspect the brain at autopsy? I was reading about the ice pick lobotomy and it occurred to me that you could forcibly do that to someone to render them vegetable-like. Not exactly murder but it would effectively get them out of your life. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/58 "2016-02-15T05:08:24Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > Osmium tetroxide, dissolved in whatsoever, would do little more than staining the skin of your fingers. > There are indeed contact poisons… The whole point to dissolving specifically in DMSO is that it carries compounds through the skin and throughout the body, so it wouldn’t need to be a contact poison. I’ve no idea if osmium tetroxide would work this way, though. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/59 "2016-02-15T05:49:58Z")
What about something like shellfish poisoning? Saxitoxin and other goodies are present in things like butter clams and can be extracted. A very small amount causes respiratory failure and cardiac arrest. I don’t know how detectable it is at autopsy. But if mixed in with some seafood perhaps the diagnosis will be they had an allergic reaction to shellfish. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087/60 "2016-02-15T14:12:49Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > People fall off cliffs inadvertently all the time. There are many scenic cliffs along the sea coast in California that aren’t all that stable, especially after a rain. > > “Did he jump, did he fall, did a spot of cliff give way, or was he pushed?” is a tough question to answer definitively in the absence of witnesses. Also, the Grand Canyon is not fenced off or anything. Never in a million years would I take small children there. And yes, people do fall in by accident, and not infrequently either. “Just back up a little bit more, honey. You’re almost in frame.” You may laugh, but it really does happen, just like that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-kill-someone-and-leave-no-sign-of-it-being-a-murder/746087.md?page=4)