# Is there actually a way to outright buy a share of a lottery jackpot? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 31, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356 "2016-07-31T04:00:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/21 "2016-07-31T16:45:51Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I don’t understand why anyone thinks this is profitable. > > Suppose you buy all the tickets in a Lottery and nobody else does. > Now you win all the prizes - but they are only worth (say) 50% of the money you paid in, because of taxes and lottery costs. > > If you hope to win in a rollover week, what happens if you hit another rollover week? > Now you’ve lost a lot of money… No, if you buy all the numbers, you are guaranteed not to “hit another rollover week.” That’s because there will be at least one grand prize winner (you) and hence there will be no rollover. A “rollover” happens when no one selects the winning number. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/22 "2016-07-31T16:51:56Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > The big Powerball jackpot got me wondering: there’s often speculating about someone with sufficient capital buying all possible number combinations in a big lottery. Ignoring the wisdom of doing such a thing, is it actually possible? **Do the major lotteries make you buy each number individually** , or can you just hand them a check and guarantee a share of the big jackpot? This - and this is probably the biggest hurdle. Most lottery tickets I have seen only let you buy five sets of numbers at a time. The first thing you need to do is to fill out tickets that cover every combination - and do it by hand. Even if 100 people are doing it, that’s almost 3 million sets of numbers each person has to fill in. But even if you do get every combination filled out, you still have to actually buy the tickets. With 100 people, that’s 600,000 ticket slips each one has to hand to a clerk. Even if the machine can handle 1 slip per second, and you have 4 days between draws, that’s only 345,600 slips per retailer - and that’s if you do it 24 hours a day. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/23 "2016-07-31T17:29:04Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > This - and this is probably the biggest hurdle. I’d say the biggest hurdle is that the sum of money that goes into the lottery is larger than the sum of money that comes out. The only way you can guarantee you’ll get the money that comes out is if you’re the only person who puts money in. And that guarantees you’ll spend more money than you collect. The only way you can make a profit from the lottery is if other people are putting money in so that you’re collecting other people’s money if you win. But all those other people who are putting money in diminish the chances that you’ll be the one collecting the money. ---
**Author:** ![TommySeven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@TommySeven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommySeven)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/24 "2016-07-31T18:29:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’d say the biggest hurdle is that the sum of money that goes into the lottery is larger than the sum of money that comes out. To be clear, everything here applies only to the rare cases where, for example due to rollover jackpots, the lottery has positive expected value. The syndicate could still lose money, if they share the jackpot or fail to cover all the numbers; but unless they drastically mis-estimate the number of regular players, or another syndicate tries the same stunt, their bets are almost certainly +EV. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/25 "2016-07-31T19:29:33Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I don’t understand why anyone thinks this is profitable. > > Suppose you buy all the tickets in a Lottery and nobody else does. > Now you win all the prizes - but they are only worth (say) 50% of the money you paid in, because of taxes and lottery costs. > > If you hope to win in a rollover week, what happens if you hit another rollover week? > Now you’ve lost a lot of money… > [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > No, if you buy all the numbers, you are guaranteed not to “hit another rollover week.” That’s because there will be at least one grand prize winner (you) and hence there will be no rollover. > > A “rollover” happens when no one selects the winning number. Ah, good point. Well that proves that you’d better buy ALL the tickets - otherwise you could be very unlucky… ---
**Author:** ![LunarPlexus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@LunarPlexus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LunarPlexus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/26 "2016-07-31T21:22:12Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Ah, good point. > Well that proves that you’d better buy ALL the tickets - otherwise you could be very unlucky… Not sure where you live, but everywhere I’m aware of there isn’t a finite number of tickets created for you to buy ALL of. There are as many tickets printed as requested by the wagerers. Buying ALL in this exercise refers to buying all permutations of the numbers in play. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/27 "2016-07-31T21:36:47Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Yes, the jackpot would increase substantially if you did this, compared to what it would have been if you hadn’t played at all. > > The jackpot consists of a percentage of the money you contributed PLUS a percentage of the money all the other players contributed PLUS any rollover amount. > > In all US state lotteries (that I know of), players are allowed to buy duplicate numbers. So it wouldn’t be just your own money you’d be winning, it would be everyone else’s money, too. > > But the important thing is the rollover jackpot. The big lotto drawings can go months without having a winner. And the jackpots roll over from drawing to drawing. When you have a big rollover amount is when the strategy of buying all the numbers (if that were physically possible) could pay off. But, big rollover jackpots do all draw more players, which increases the chances that you would have to split the jackpot with multiple players, which could work against you. wasn’t there a lottery fixing scandal in an east coast state where these guys would buy the tickets and not turn them in until the prize got huge and then cash in once they thought it was worth it ? if I remember the only reason it was discovered was they figured out the same 20 or so guys would collect the winnings … ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/28 "2016-08-01T00:09:56Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > wasn’t there a lottery fixing scandal in an east coast state where these guys would buy the tickets and not turn them in until the prize got huge and then cash in once they thought it was worth it ? if I remember the only reason it was discovered was they figured out the same 20 or so guys would collect the winnings … > **[How MIT Students Scammed the Massachusetts Lottery for $8 Million](https://newsfeed.time.com/2012/08/07/how-mit-students-scammed-the-massachusetts-lottery-for-8-million/)** > > MIT students figured out how to make winning the Massachusetts lottery a sure thing, and a recent investigation suggests that the lottery commission knew about it ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/29 "2016-08-01T06:55:34Z")
In the Australian Powerball, you can buy a Systems Entry which covers thousands of entries. Also has fewer baaaalls. > **[How to Play Powerball | Australia's Official Lotteries | The Lott](https://www.thelott.com/powerball/how-to-play)** > > Powerball guarantees a minimum division one prize pool of $3 million every Thursday, with Jackpots reaching as high as $100 million in the past! Grab a quickpick, mark your own entry or play a system or pick entry online now at Australia's Official... ---
**Author:** ![Galwegian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galwegian/32/3426_2.png) [@Galwegian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galwegian)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/30 "2016-08-01T14:37:14Z")
A syndicate did just this in Ireland in the 1990s. Even if they had to share the jackpot, they worked out that they would still be in profit from winning secondary Match 4 and Match 5 prizes. > **[How to make a killing on the lottery](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/how-to-make-a-killing-on-the-lottery-1322272.html)** > > The winning formula: Irish syndicate reveals the painstaking method for beating the odds ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/31 "2016-08-01T14:54:46Z")
I’m completely mystified by the intent of the OP. It almost seems if you are asking if it’s possible to buy money. Are you asking if it’s possible to buy money at a discount? Or what exactly? ---
**Author:** ![TommySeven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@TommySeven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommySeven)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/32 "2016-08-01T15:01:25Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’m completely mystified by the intent of the OP. It almost seems if you are asking if it’s possible to buy money. Are you asking if it’s possible to buy money at a discount? Or what exactly? Read the linked examples. Lotteries occasionally offer positive expected value, at which point, subject to the clerical and logistical challenge of buying all the tickets, a syndicate with sufficient funds can indeed buy money at a discount. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/33 "2018-03-16T14:24:01Z")
**[How to Use Math to Get Rich in the Lottery\*](https://youtu.be/QtlmXoHpNyI) - Jordan Ellenberg (Wisconsin–Madison)** For seven years, a group of students from MIT exploited a loophole in the Massachusetts State Lottery’s Cash WinFall game to win drawing after drawing, eventually pocketing more that $3 million. How did they do it? How did they get away with it? And what does this all have to do with mathematical entities like finite geometries, variance of probability distributions, and error-correcting codes? Hour-long vid lecture just published. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/34 "2018-03-16T14:35:21Z")
> [@yearofglad](#): > > Note that you could, in theory, write a check for twice that amount - about $584,000,000, to buy all the possible combinations. You’ll definitely win the jackpot but the problem is twofold: > > 1. You have to pay taxes on your winnings, Just to clarify It is gambling so you just need to pay on the profit. Let’s say the prize is $600,000,000 cash value then you only pay tax on $16,000,000 ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/35 "2018-03-16T16:31:41Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Just to clarify It is gambling so you just need to pay on the profit. Let’s say the prize is $600,000,000 cash value then you only pay tax on $16,000,000 Provided that you keep all those other losing tickets as proof of your losses when you file your taxes. The IRS is going to get real picky when you claim that you spent $584,000,000 and you want to deduct that much from your 600 million. Another thing to consider when calculating if buying all these tickets to win the big prize is worth it is that the lottery does not have the advertised jackpot amount, they only have half that amount. At least in the US all the big lotteries, Powerball, MegaMillions and the state lotteries only have half. And they will invest that and pay you out in annual payments over 30 years after which time you may have ended up with the full jackpot amount, adding up all those payments. If you want cash they will give you the half that they have and be done with you. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/36 "2018-03-16T16:53:03Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > As I understand it, the cost of buying up all the combinations for a lottery might exceed the size of the jackpot itself - and even if not, the lottery is funded by the ticket sales, so if you bought up all combinations, the jackpot would simply consist of…the money you just gave them, now being given back to you. (Someone correct me if I’m way off here.) 50% of ticket sales go into the prize pool, with about half going to pay out smaller prizes, so you would only be getting 25% of your “investment” back. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Just to clarify It is gambling so you just need to pay on the profit. Let’s say the prize is $600,000,000 cash value then you only pay tax on $16,000,000 But, keep in mind that those big numbers that they have on the billboard are the annuity amounts. The cash amount is usually a bit over half of that. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/37 "2018-03-16T18:55:22Z")
Seems like it would be more efficient to just call dibs on the jackpot and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/38 "2018-03-16T19:05:45Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Some [previous](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=780553&highlight=lottery+combinations) [threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=646532&highlight=lottery+combinations) on this subject. > > In short, it’s possible but very difficult and almost certainly unprofitable. You do have to physically purchase every combination, which requires teams of thousands of people. Neglecting any payment you give to them, you still have to hope nobody else hits the jackpot, which drives down your winnings. True, if someone else wins the big jackpot then your winning is cut in half. What about people who get 5 out of 6 or 4 out of 6 numbers, do those add up and meaningfully add to the jackpot? If there are 30 possible numbers on a six ticket lottery, shouldn’t you get over 100 tickets where you got 5 out of 6 numbers, and endless thousands where you got 4 out of 6? If the jackpot for getting 6/6 numbers may be 20 million, isn’t the jackpot for getting 5/6 normally around 100k or so? If you get 100 of those that adds up quite a bit. I know people have done this, but my impression is that they more do it for state lotteries where the number combinations are under 10 million. So they’ll get maybe a group of 2,000 people to each buy 5000 lottery tickets. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/39 "2018-03-16T19:22:00Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > True, if someone else wins the big jackpot then your winning is cut in half. > > What about people who get 5 out of 6 or 4 out of 6 numbers, do those add up and meaningfully add to the jackpot? If there are 30 possible numbers on a six ticket lottery, shouldn’t you get over 100 tickets where you got 5 out of 6 numbers, and endless thousands where you got 4 out of 6? If the jackpot for getting 6/6 numbers may be 20 million, isn’t the jackpot for getting 5/6 normally around 100k or so? If you get 100 of those that adds up quite a bit. > > I know people have done this, but my impression is that they more do it for state lotteries where the number combinations are under 10 million. So they’ll get maybe a group of 2,000 people to each buy 5000 lottery tickets. The non-jackpot prize usually accounts for about 25% of the ticket revenue. If you get 5 numbers, but not the special one, that nets $1 million. There is usually between 1 and 4 winners of the million dollar prize. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356/40 "2018-03-17T00:05:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > 50% of ticket sales go into the prize pool, with about half going to pay out smaller prizes, so you would only be getting 25% of your “investment” back. > > But, keep in mind that those big numbers that they have on the billboard are the annuity amounts. The cash amount is usually a bit over half of that. Which is why I said “$600,000,000 _cash value_” in my post [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-actually-a-way-to-outright-buy-a-share-of-a-lottery-jackpot/761356.md?page=3)