# Is there an accepted term for the post-post-apocalyptic subgenre of sci-fi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 13, 2007, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711 "2007-03-13T04:44:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/1 "2007-03-13T04:44:01Z")
When I say “post-apocalyptic,” I generally think of Mad Max or Damnation Alley and so on - humans who lived through an apocalyptic event (usually nuclear war) and are fighting for life in the rubble of civilization. But what term do you use when you want to refer to the specific subgenre or motif in fiction that deals with a sort of post-post-apocalyptic condition, where some apocalyptic event (like nuclear war) completely destroyed civilization, thus returning humanity to a more idyllic or simply more “savage” state, to the point where the big cataclysm is barely remembered and thought of as half-myth? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/2 "2007-03-13T14:58:57Z")
I think it would still be called post-apocalyptic. For instance, consider the story “By the Waters of Babylon” by Stephen Vincent Benet, a very early example of this genre. It would be referred to as a post-apocalyptic story. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/3 "2007-03-13T15:20:55Z")
I don’t know of any differentiation. Post-apocalyptic can refer to any time after an apocalypse, either when things are a mess, or when order has finally been restored. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/4 "2007-03-13T18:02:07Z")
Well, let’s name some examples, just for grins. You might call “The Lord of the Rings” such a story — it takes place in an age after the high-water mark of both the Elves and the Dwarves — the children of Durin had once had deep mines and fantastic halls, the Elves were mighty enough to challenge Mordor with a grand army. Not technically an _apocalypse_. The Foundation series might also count, as it specifically written about the reconstruction of society after the (long, slow) fall of the Galactic Empire. Also not an apocalypse, per se, because the word suggests a near-instantaneous wholesale destruction of the old society. How about “The White Mountains” series by John Christopher? It’s clearly post-apocalyptic, as the narrator, Beanpole and Henry (?) discover the remains of a subway, hand grenades, etc. However, nobody really remembers the Fall. What about the Shannara series? That was a bit less ambiguous about the previous civilization. It seems to me Allanon whinged on about the society that came before, and it was likely an advanced technical society, suggesting apocalpyse. It might not count; it was a fantasy book, and not a sci-fi book as per the thread title. Hmm — what’s a clearer example. “Planet of the Apes,” maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/5 "2007-03-13T18:32:17Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] Hmm — what’s a clearer example. “Planet of the Apes,” maybe? [/QUOTE] I think _A Canticle for Liebowitz_ must be the classic example. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/6 "2007-03-13T18:42:48Z")
Some novels where there was an apocalypse in the past, but where society has reconstituted itself (though not always for the better): **Davy** by Edgar Pangborn **A Canticle for Lebowitz** by William M. Miller **Planet of the Apes** (the movie) ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/7 "2007-03-13T18:51:23Z")
It was actually John Crowley’s **Engine Summer** that got me thinking about this, because I wanted to describe it to a friend and I just said - “it’s post-apocalyptic, but not, you know, Mad Max.” In this case, it’s long after some sort of apocalypse, and people have returned to a quasi-edenic state, akin to the Indians before the white people came over. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/8 "2007-03-13T19:27:28Z")
A lot of these stories seem to be “Post-invasion” like the aforementioned **White Mountains.** H.M. Hoover based \*\*The Delikon \*\* on the same premise. **Dune** has a similar theme going with the Butlerian Jihad standing in for the apocalypse. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/9 "2007-03-13T19:39:10Z")
**Eternity Road** by Jack McDevitt is one of these. The action takes place very post-apocalyptic and with rumors of a bygone era of engineers who built the ‘roads’ that are still out there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/10 "2007-03-13T19:56:36Z")
Much of Stephen King’s **Dark Tower** series takes place in a world that has “moved on” – the Affiliation of Baronies has fallen, and everywhere are remnants of a technological civilization that collapsed long before the Affiliation was founded by the legendary Arthur Eld. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/11 "2007-03-13T19:59:00Z")
Stephen King’s The Dark Tower series. In Roland’s world, things are still pretty bad in a Road Warrior-ish kind of way, but it’s been a looooooong time since “the world moved on.” ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/12 "2007-03-13T20:00:06Z")
Damn you, **BrainGlutton**! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/13 "2007-03-13T20:44:32Z")
Wouldn’t these be properly called “Renaissance” stories? Not that anyone actually uses the term, but I can’t think of a better one. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/14 "2007-03-13T20:53:08Z")
Wouldn’t the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe also qualify? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/15 "2007-03-13T21:06:11Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Wouldn’t these be properly called “Renaissance” stories? Not that anyone actually uses the term, but I can’t think of a better one. [/QUOTE] Some of these stories depict worlds still stuck in “Dark Ages.” ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/16 "2007-03-13T21:40:19Z")
[QUOTE=Hypno-Toad] H.M. Hoover based \*\*The Delikon \*\* on the same premise. [/QUOTE] You’re exactly the second person I’ve met in 30+ years who’s even heard of this novel. I still take it down off the shelf every now and again and give it another read. ---
**Author:** ![MacSpon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@MacSpon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacSpon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/17 "2007-03-13T22:36:15Z")
John Wyndham’s **The Chrysalids** also qualifies, I think. ---
**Author:** ![jkusters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/fbc32d/32.png) [@jkusters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkusters)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/18 "2007-03-13T23:02:52Z")
I would think that **Hiero’s Journey** and **The Unforsaken Hiero** by Sterling Lanier qualify as well. Gosh, I remember reading those when I was quite young, sneaking them out of my dad’s library… JOhn. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/19 "2007-03-13T23:13:39Z")
Well **Futurama** is set in a time where the cities are destoyed, rebuilt, destoyed and rebuilt again, so maybe that is post-post Apocalyptic ---
**Author:** ![Agonist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/439d5e/32.png) [@Agonist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agonist)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/20 "2007-03-13T23:17:46Z")
I seem to recall the word “fallen” being used in reference to these discussions… fallen earth, fallen society… it’s an extremely common way to set up a fantasy world for fiction or gaming. It gives the medieval level structure, with an explanation for underground cities with “magic” treasure in them. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711.md?page=2)