# Is there an accepted term for the post-post-apocalyptic subgenre of sci-fi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 13, 2007, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711 "2007-03-13T04:44:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/21 "2007-03-13T23:21:12Z")
I think **GO** and the OP hit it…post-post apocalyptic. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/22 "2007-03-14T00:05:32Z")
Most of John Varley’s work is set after aliens come and level Earth–the only human survivors are in colonies on the various planets in the Solar System. The stories run the gamut from the “pioneer” age right after the Invasion up to the very settled time with cities and some really interesting levels of technology… ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/23 "2007-03-14T02:05:18Z")
I just looked in _The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction_, edited by John Clute and Peter Nichols, which is generally the best reference on science fiction genres. They call this genre the post-holocaust story, and it goes way back. The first example they mention of a story set long after (in fact, thousands of years after) a holocaust that destroys civilization, when enough time has passed to allow a rebuilt civilization, is _After London_ by Richard Jeffries, which was published in 1885. ---
**Author:** ![Rue\_DeDay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/41988e/32.png) [@Rue\_DeDay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rue_DeDay)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/24 "2007-03-14T02:14:30Z")
**Farnham’s Freehold** by Bob-o Heinlein. Post-post-apocalyptic _and_ (with a nice dose of time-travel) simply post-apocalyptic. Plus cannibalism! ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/25 "2007-03-14T02:39:46Z")
My single favorite novel, [_Riddley Walker_](http://www.ocelotfactory.com/hoban/riddley.html), tells the story of an England (now called Inland) 29,000 years (IIRC) after a nuclear holocaust. The people of Inland are still wallowing in the mud, because any and all technology, according to the religion that has developed, is evil. (Intelligence itself has evil connotations: the devil figure in their morality plays is named Mister Clevver, the two v’s, suggesting a cloven hoof, or a pair of horns.) At the time of the novel, the handful of men that hold religious power over the many are trying to re-invent gunpowder; presumably to start the whole cycle over again. It’s a challenging read, but still the book I go back to more than any other I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![akira5822](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@akira5822](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akira5822)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/26 "2007-03-14T05:27:08Z")
A different take on the subject is **Dies the fire \*\* and** The protector’s war\*\* by **S.M. Sterling** ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Captain\_C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_C)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/27 "2007-03-14T05:35:20Z")
I remember reading a book when I was a kid about this sort of thing, but I can’t remember the title of it. Can anyone help me out? Basically, civilization had gone back to city-states. Technology was seen as a sort of religion to be persecuted. The main character had a friend, Simon I think or something similiar, who when he grew up joined an order of monks or similiar religious group. At some point in the book, this group of monks was found to be dealing in technology and many of them were hung for it. At the end, the main character talks about how he is in charge of one of the city-states, and they are slowly conquering the other neighboring city-states with technology. During the siege of one of these city-states, many of the townspeople stood in the breach in the wall to stop the invading army since their faith in anti-technology was so strong. Or something like that… ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/28 "2007-03-14T05:44:16Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] My single favorite novel, [_Riddley Walker_](http://www.ocelotfactory.com/hoban/riddley.html), tells the story of an England (now called Inland) 29,000 years (IIRC) after a nuclear holocaust. The people of Inland are still wallowing in the mud, because any and all technology, according to the religion that has developed, is evil. (Intelligence itself has evil connotations: the devil figure in their morality plays is named Mister Clevver, the two v’s, suggesting a cloven hoof, or a pair of horns.) At the time of the novel, the handful of men that hold religious power over the many are trying to re-invent gunpowder; presumably to start the whole cycle over again. It’s a challenging read, but still the book I go back to more than any other I’ve ever read. [/QUOTE] It’s where you got your name from, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![anamnesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@anamnesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anamnesis)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/29 "2007-03-14T06:00:20Z")
As an answer to the actual question in the OP, how about _dystopian_ or _ecotopian_? Used in reference to a post-apocolyptic world wherein soceity is culturally/socially subjugated or imprisoned (i.e. the Morlocks and Eloi in ‘The Time Machine’, or the Combine and Humanity in ‘Half-Life 2’). The dys- prefix implies a serious dysfunction at the core of a seemingly utopian society, and the eco- prefix implying a focus on protecting an environment that may have been damaged or destroyed as a result of some cataclysm. There’s an entry on utopian fiction on Wikipedia which goes into some good detail. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/30 "2007-03-14T06:22:52Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] It’s where you got your name from, isn’t it? [/QUOTE] Yes, my first internet sign-on, in 1994, was lissener. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/31 "2007-03-14T07:28:34Z")
_Hiero’s Journey_ was my first thought as well. _Trader’s World_ by Charles Sheffield is set well after a nuclear war, and the world has again reached a high tech state. _Gravity Dreams_ by LE Modesitt Jr is set thousands of years after a massive ecological collapse, with most of civilization both low tech and fanatically stagnant. There is one very high tech culture, however. _The Mote in God’s Eye_ has a post-post apocalypse Empire, and a post-post-post-post-post-post-etc apocalypse Motie species. There are some fantasy books/series set in post-post apocalypse worlds. The Spellsong Cycle by L.E. Modesitt, Jr; The Wheel of Time books; Mercedes Lackey’s Valdemar books ( two of the major landscape features are actually enormous craters ); and Holly Lisle’s _Diplomacy of Wolves_ and sequals has a map with so many craters it made me think of Mote Prime. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/32 "2007-03-14T07:30:13Z")
[QUOTE=Zakalwe] Wouldn’t the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe also qualify? [/QUOTE] Yes, although that series is set so far in the future (the number 300 million - years - is bandied about) that who knows how many apocalypses that world has seen. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/33 "2007-03-14T12:30:23Z")
Would Pournelle’s _Empire of Man_ stories count? While there’s a flourishing interstellar empire it’s clearly indicated that Earth was ruined in the past. At one point I seem to recall New Annapolis (the training ground for Imperial Navy officers) is mentioned as being kept in the Sol system to make certain new cadets know the price of failure by seeing what’s left of Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/34 "2007-03-14T20:17:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Used in reference to a post-apocolyptic world wherein soceity is culturally/socially subjugated or imprisoned (i.e. the Morlocks and Eloi in ‘The Time Machine’, or the Combine and Humanity in ‘Half-Life 2’). Society is not culturally or socially subjugated or imprisoned in “The Time Machine”. Or at least, there’s no indication that it is: We only ever see any members of the future society very briefly, when they come to the surface for food. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/35 "2007-03-14T20:40:48Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] Some novels where there was an apocalypse in the past, but where society has reconstituted itself (though not always for the better): **Davy** by Edgar Pangborn **A Canticle for Lebowitz** by William M. Miller **Planet of the Apes** (the movie) [/QUOTE] Actually, almost all Pangborn’s science fiction except _West of the Sun_ is set in the same post-Apocalyptic world. _A Mirror for Observers_ is 20th-Century contemporary, and relates the origins of half the causes (the Red Plague, the origin of Abraham Brown) of the post-Apocalyptic world that the other stories are set in. Briefly, a bio-engineered plague and what is essentially flooding from global warming (in a ficton invented in the 1950s!) resulted in a roughly medieval civilization succeeding the present one. _Davy_ and its quasi-sequel _The Company of Glory_ are set in that world, as is _The Judgment of Eve_ and the short stories collected in _Still I Persist in Wondering_, including “The Night Wind.” A few other Pangborn short stories (e.g., “Longtooth”) are also from that same future. Though Pangborn also worked in other genres – historical, courtroom drama – his SF is intensely humanist and optimistic, though adroitly depicting human foibles and inhumanity. ---
**Author:** ![anamnesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@anamnesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anamnesis)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/36 "2007-03-14T20:45:31Z")
Alright, Chronos … 1. The Morlocks don’t come to the surface. The Eloi are called below. 2. The Eloi have no control over this arrangement. I’d consider that a form of subjugation and consequently, a dystopic one. Some controlling power exerts control over a subjugated society, often under the guise that it’s for their own good. 3. The Time Machine is one of the most well-known works of dystopian fiction. That is, if you’ve actually read the book or seen the original film. Judging from your response, it sounds like your only exposure to the Morlocks was when they popped out of the sand to attack Guy Pierce in the version that made about $17 at the box office a few years ago. Sadly, eight of those dollars were mine. 4. More importantly, what would you call it then, if not a dystopia? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/37 "2007-03-14T21:16:18Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] _Hiero’s Journey_ was my first thought as well. _Trader’s World_ by Charles Sheffield is set well after a nuclear war, and the world has again reached a high tech state. [/QUOTE] Not quite. I’d say the good guys are somewhere in the 1700’s at the start of the first book. The Dark Brotherhood does have non spoilers nuclear-powered ships and a form of computers among other things. By the second book, the good guys have reached the age of steam power. But Hiero’s world does fit. People live in stable societies ruled by laws. The Great Death is remembered as something that happened long ago in a near mythic world. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/38 "2007-03-14T21:22:54Z")
[QUOTE=Jonathan Chance] Would Pournelle’s _Empire of Man_ stories count? While there’s a flourishing interstellar empire it’s clearly indicated that Earth was ruined in the past. At one point I seem to recall New Annapolis (the training ground for Imperial Navy officers) is mentioned as being kept in the Sol system to make certain new cadets know the price of failure by seeing what’s left of Earth. [/QUOTE] Yes, I think it counts ( which is why I mentioned _The Mote in God’s Eye_, and you’re right about New Annapolis. It’s set on one of the few inhabitable islands left. Vernor Vinge has written a few post-post apocalypse stories. _The Peddler’s Apprentice_, and _The Ungoverned_ for example. > [@](#): > > Not quite. I’d say the good guys are somewhere in the 1700’s at the start of the first book. The Dark Brotherhood does have non spoilers nuclear-powered ships and a form of computers among other things. By the second book, the good guys have reached the age of steam power. My hi-tech statement was about _Trader’s World_, not _Hiero’s Journey_; in Sheffield’s book they have brain implants and space travel, which is certainly hi-tech. And I always liked what the enemies of the Brotherhood called them, The Unclean. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/39 "2007-03-14T21:48:03Z")
Some not mentioned are Star Man’s Son by Andre Norton and the Battle Circle series (Sos the Rope, etc.) by Piers Anthony. Not to mention Talking World War III Blues by Dylan. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/40 "2007-03-14T21:55:57Z")
> [@](#): > > That is, if you’ve actually read the book or seen the original film. Judging from your response, it sounds like your only exposure to the Morlocks was when they popped out of the sand to attack Guy Pierce in the version that made about $17 at the box office a few years ago. Sadly, eight of those dollars were mine. I’ll carefully avoid taking offense at that. My first and primary exposure to the work is the book, but it was many years ago that I read it, hence any misrememberings. I share your opinion of the recent movie; now we just have to figure out who paid the other four bucks. No, the Eloi don’t have any say in the arrangement. Neither do cows now; that doesn’t make the present dystopian. Despite the fact that the Eloi look like idealized humans, they’re not the people of the future: The Morlochs are. This, incidentally, was one of the departures of that much-lamented movie, that they made the surface-dwellers people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711.md?page=3)