# Is there an accepted term for the post-post-apocalyptic subgenre of sci-fi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 13, 2007, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711 "2007-03-13T04:44:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![anamnesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@anamnesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anamnesis)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/41 "2007-03-14T22:39:18Z")
Well, yeah, the Eloi weren’t “people” as we know them in the book, but they are people in both movies. I wasn’t trying to offend, but the Morlocks didn’t really like coming above ground unless it was dark. So, I guess by comparing this story to our relationships with cows, the poor things are living in a dystopia too, along with their chicken and pig friends. I suppose The Time Machine should’ve ended with the Morlocks dragging the time traveller underground as he calls out to the clueless prey: “Soylent Green is _Eloiiiii!_” I know the Eloi weren’t really much of a society because they were, by design, dumb as rocks and meant to be food for their totalitarian oppressors, but let’s not split genre hairs. If the example of some entity subjugating a post-apocolyptic society isn’t considered a dystopia, then what is it? ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/42 "2007-03-14T22:47:56Z")
How about Octavia Butler’s [Xenogenisis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenogenesis) series? I read 2 (I think) of the 3 many years ago. Post-apocalypse with aliens who sort-of rescue humanity afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/43 "2007-03-15T03:03:15Z")
anamnesis writes: \> As an answer to the actual question in the OP, how about dystopian or \> ecotopian? Used in reference to a post-apocolyptic world wherein soceity is \> culturally/socially subjugated or imprisoned (i.e. the Morlocks and Eloi in ‘The \> Time Machine’, or the Combine and Humanity in ‘Half-Life 2’). The dys- prefix \> implies a serious dysfunction at the core of a seemingly utopian society, and the \> eco- prefix implying a focus on protecting an environment that may have been \> damaged or destroyed as a result of some cataclysm. There’s an entry on \> utopian fiction on Wikipedia which goes into some good detail. The problem with using those terms is that they apply to more general types of stories than just the post-apocalyptic/post-holocaust stories that are being asked about in the OP. A utopia is a society (usually a future society, but it could be hidden away somewhere at present) that is better, in some sense, than any present-day society. A dystopia is a society (presumably future one) that is worse than any present-day society. There isn’t any commonly accepted definition for the word “ecotopia,” but presumably it means a future society that’s more ecologically sustainable than present-day society. These are all useful distinctions, but they don’t answer the OP, since people have written utopias, dystopias, and ecotopias that didn’t come about because of some apocalyptic event. Some post-apocalyptic stories are utopias, dystopias, or ecotopias, but some aren’t any of those catagories. Furthermore, some utopias, some dystopias, and some ecotopias didn’t come about because apocalyptic events. So these distinctions don’t really answer the question in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/44 "2007-03-15T03:34:11Z")
[QUOTE=anamnesis] Well, yeah, the Eloi weren’t “people” as we know them in the book [/QUOTE] They most certainly are. Childlike (both physically and mentally), and low intelligence, but still people. They’re still sentient, they still have a rudimentary (if decadent) society and language. They’re as much people as the Morlocks are. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/45 "2007-03-15T04:21:58Z")
[QUOTE=Captain\_C] I remember reading a book when I was a kid about this sort of thing, but I can’t remember the title of it. Can anyone help me out? Basically, civilization had gone back to city-states. Technology was seen as a sort of religion to be persecuted. The main character had a friend, Simon I think or something similiar, who when he grew up joined an order of monks or similiar religious group. At some point in the book, this group of monks was found to be dealing in technology and many of them were hung for it. At the end, the main character talks about how he is in charge of one of the city-states, and they are slowly conquering the other neighboring city-states with technology. During the siege of one of these city-states, many of the townspeople stood in the breach in the wall to stop the invading army since their faith in anti-technology was so strong. Or something like that… [/QUOTE] This is really anoying, because I read these books too, and know exactly what you mean, but I can’t remember the title or the author either. I can tell you precisely which shelf it was on in the school library, though… ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/46 "2007-03-15T04:43:04Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Yes, although that series is set so far in the future (the number 300 million - years - is bandied about) that who knows how many apocalypses that world has seen. [/QUOTE] Just FTR, it’s mentioned once in the series that humans have existed for 52 million years–I’ll try to find where later. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Captain\_C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_C)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/47 "2007-03-15T15:22:56Z")
[QUOTE=Septima] This is really anoying, because I read these books too, and know exactly what you mean, but I can’t remember the title or the author either. I can tell you precisely which shelf it was on in the school library, though… [/QUOTE] Well if you remember, let me know. I’ve spent about 3 hours in the past week on Amazon and Google trying to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/48 "2007-03-15T15:59:22Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Just FTR, it’s mentioned once in the series that humans have existed for 52 million years–I’ll try to find where later. [/QUOTE] Maybe I got that wrong. Still, it’s a staggering number. One of the most striking passages in the (terrific) series sees the protagonist climbing down a vast, Grand Canyon-like cliff, studying the the layers of rock as he passes. He notes, almost offhandedly, that every level of strata he passes shows signs of human existance, all the way to the bottom. It’s an awe-inspiring moment. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/49 "2007-03-15T16:25:09Z")
Captain\_C & Septima you are remembering _another_ post apocalypse book by John Chrisopher. He wrote quite a few of them. It’s called [The Prince In Waiting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_In_Waiting) and it was one of my favourite books as a teenager. Other post apocalyptic books he wrote include : - A Wrinkle in the Skin - a series of earthquakes destroy much of the world. - Death of Grass - a plague wipes out most forms of grass, so there’s no wheat, rice, maize or cattle fodder. Survivors battle each other for the limited food that remains. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/50 "2007-03-15T20:19:39Z")
Perhaps another term would be ‘historical’. After all, humanity’s already sufferred the odd apocalypse or two: the fall of the Roman Empire and the Black Death to name but two. Society collapses, but then rebounds. > [@VC03](#): > > and people have returned to a quasi-edenic state, akin to the Indians before the white people came over. Splutter! ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711/51 "2007-03-15T23:57:10Z")
[QUOTE=anamnesis] As an answer to the actual question in the OP, how about _dystopian_ or _ecotopian_? Used in reference to a post-apocalyptic world wherein society is culturally/socially subjugated or imprisoned (i.e. the Morlocks and Eloi in ‘The Time Machine’, or the Combine and Humanity in ‘Half-Life 2’). The dys- prefix implies a serious dysfunction at the core of a seemingly utopian society, and the eco- prefix implying a focus on protecting an environment that may have been damaged or destroyed as a result of some cataclysm. There’s an entry on utopian fiction on Wikipedia which goes into some good detail. [/QUOTE] A dystopian story is simply one where the future sucks. It doesn’t necessarily involve an apocalypse. Orwellian fiction is dystopian, but there usually wasn’t an Apocalypse of any sort. As for “ecotopian,” well, that sounds like a word I’d use to describe Captain Planet. I vote for “fallen society” or “post-holocaust,” per **Agonist** and **Wendell Wagner** ’s posts. “Post-Apocalyptic” is usually used to describe stories in which the Apocalypse occurred in the relatively recent past. Both Fallen Society and Post-Holocaust mean the same thing, but don’t have the same connotations of immediacy. BTW, the Star Trek franchise is set in a post-holocaust future. A nuclear war nearly wiped out humanity, and allowed the utopic Federation to arise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-accepted-term-for-the-post-post-apocalyptic-subgenre-of-sci-fi/395711.md?page=2)