# Is there an answer to the out-of-context talking-point in an online debate that "there's been more Covid deaths under Biden"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 24, 2022, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723 "2022-06-24T05:51:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/21 "2022-06-24T14:19:26Z")
The truth is it is fairly difficult to directly blame either Trump or Biden for these deaths. That likely is a whole debate in and of itself, but some degree (and in my opinion) most of the covid mortality we had was essentially baked in the moment the pandemic hit. Primarily because of the nature of our country being divided into 50 States, with emergency health powers for public health crises largely being wielded by State level officials, with a huge population unwilling to take any disease seriously, with a big reservoir of vaccine hesitant people etc etc. Trump did not create any of those things, even if he did cheer some of it on. The rhetoric Biden used in the campaign wasn’t really dishonest though, at least in my mind–and I’m grading him on the “politician’s curve”, so there is some level of _disingenuousness_ innate to that, right. Biden’s rhetoric was largely about sending the message that Trump was never taking the pandemic seriously enough, tried to downplay it, and was consistently putting other concerns higher in precedence than trying to contain the disease. Biden was promising he would make covid his main concern. This was fairly basic political calculus and actually smart–poll after poll in 2020 actually showed a good chunk of the electorate took the pandemic as the #1 issue for them, even higher than the economy (which is _usually_ the #1 issue.) Biden was positioning himself as the “take covid seriously” candidate. Trump had largely already locked in for himself the position of “I value the economy more.” It ends up in the suburbs that Trump message didn’t win. It likely did win in lower income Hispanic communities in some parts of Texas and Florida, though. This didn’t surprise me–those are workers most directly affected by shutdowns, who don’t have jobs where they can sit at home and make good money, if their stores close they lose their income. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Actually my point was (as I’ve pointed out in many threads) that Biden is his own worse enemy when spinning the political crisis of the day, and in this case his words came back to haunt him. Even if he does the right thing he f’s up the optics. Like pulling out of Afghanistan. It was the right move but then he talks about believing the Taliban when they said they would respect women’s rights. How’s that working out? We’d be in agreement that Biden mismanages the political optics of a number of things, but this triggered my “nonsense detector.” His withdrawal from Afghanistan was clearly done under the assumption the Afghan National government would not immediately collapse, so it was not done under any presumption that the Taliban would “respect women’s rights”, he clearly expected the Taliban would not be in charge–and on that he was wrong (as was a chunk of U.S. intelligence.) He also has refused to return billions of dollars in state assets to the Taliban in part specifically because of their treatment of women, so I don’t see much evidence that he’s given the Taliban a lot of benefit of the doubt there. Biden likely knew it was _possible_ the Taliban would take over, but he essentially gambled it would take a few years and he wouldn’t take the heat for it. He lost that wager. FWIW I was a reluctant Biden voter (I’ve never been a big fan, was a Republican until 2014 or so, I would vote for virtually any Democrat over Trump though), and I consider him getting us out of Afghanistan one of his few undeniable wins, along with the infrastructure bill. The problem is those two wins give him basically no political currency at all. Afghanistan is seen as a loss. The infrastructure bill was sorely needed but won’t make any meaningful impact for 4-5+ years as projects get bid out and started, and people just aren’t voting based on that stuff, but I had been hammering infrastructure as a need for about 15 years–and if Trump had managed to get it together and pass his long promised infrastructure bill, I’d have called that one of the few wins of his Presidency, too. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/22 "2022-06-24T14:21:55Z")
Why are we talking about the pullout from Afghanistan in connection with Biden? Trump was the one who negotiated that deal. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/23 "2022-06-24T14:23:10Z")
Yes, we should assume that people are commenting dispassionately (or with great sympathy) when they obsess about the demise of their political enemies. 🤪 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2022, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/24 "2022-06-24T15:06:02Z")
I wouldn’t make that assumption. But I would also not make the assertion that you have that any mention of the basic facts is, as you so incoherently conclude, “an obsession.” ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2022, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/25 "2022-06-24T15:13:38Z")
There were more Britians killed by Nazis under Churchill than under Chamberlain, so clearly Chamberlain did a better job in handling Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2022, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/26 "2022-06-25T01:08:17Z")
Stalag Green? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2022, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/27 "2022-06-25T01:21:16Z")
It’s made of Untermunchen! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/28 "2022-06-25T21:00:09Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Of course Biden won’t take responsibility for those deaths, and I’m sure Trump didn’t take responsibility for the deaths on his watch. Trump never forced people to drink Covid-Juice™. > > But that is not the point and I predict that your response is the first in what we see now in any SD thread: Trump did nothing right and is worst than Hitler while the Democrats never do anything wrong and is the greatest American ever. > > Actually my point was (as I’ve pointed out in many threads) that Biden is his own worse enemy when spinning the political crisis of the day, and in this case his words came back to haunt him. Even if he does the right thing he f’s up the optics. Like pulling out of Afghanistan. It was the right move but then he talks about believing the Taliban when they said they would respect women’s rights. How’s that working out? > > So even if I agree with the OP’s premise that the number of deaths under Trump and Biden are not comparable, in unqualified black-and-white the counter to Win Place Show’s argument is given by Biden himself and if WPS came up to me in a bar and made the statement he did here, I’d love to see how he qualifies, twists, and fold-spindle-mutilates Biden’s statement so that he didn’t _really_ say what he said. ⁢ Or we could not drink from your little poisoned well. No one needs to say Trump never did anything good to point out that he failed on COVID-19. He dismantled our pandemic response team when he came into office. He hesitated to act early enough. He pushed the idea that it was a hoax. He encouraged people to ignore all of the science and science-based restrictions. And then he lost complete control of the movement he started, being unable to get even his followers to get vaccinated. Why would they get vaccinated for a hoax? Or when they can just take a dewormer or a malaria drug, or even drink bleach and be just fine? You say you’re a sane Republican. So why did you feel the need to try and play these games to attack Biden and make Trump look better? Why couldn’t you have answered the question about how to rebut this, rather than actively engaging in the same deceptive argument? Why would you find it funny to see someone struggling against this deceptive argument, rather than try to help them? There’s a reason why people assumed you were a MAGA supporter. If you’re not, then why engage in the type of partisan bickering that only helps them further their cause? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2022, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/29 "2022-06-25T21:08:13Z")
My simple answer to the OP is: Don’t fight. Give the numbers and arguments, factually, reasonably, and honestly and trust that to be a good thing to have out in the world. Other thought leaders who encounter your words will see the difference and fold what you said into their repertoire and the one guy who you were responding to will, somewhere in the back of his head, have what you said floating around, harassing his faith. He might not show that or admit it, but it’s there. Do good, honestly and fulsomely. Fighting - meaning that you’re dropping the parts of the argument that go against the presentation you want, trying to distract away from certain things, name calling, ascribing to an argument while revealing ignorance of the facts for and against that argument, etc. - these will all hurt you and your ability to help the world. Only being knowledgeable, forthcoming, and trustworthy does any good. And, more importantly, anything more than that is only bad. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2022, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/30 "2022-06-25T21:22:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Of course Biden won’t take responsibility for those deaths, and I’m sure Trump didn’t take responsibility for the deaths on his watch. Trump never forced people to drink Covid-Juice™. trump is not directly responsible, except so far as he disbanded the Pandemic team. However, trump stared the anti science movement, and Conservative talk radio and Fox news has been spreading ridiculous rumors about masking (you will die or pass out from the CO2) and the Vaccines (you will become magnetic, and hundreds more, check out Politifact, some are so ridiculous that they would be funny, except they are killing people). I read that some epidemiologists are suggesting that somewhere between 1/3 to 2/3 of covid deaths in the USA were caused by these lies. So, taking a middle ground, that means that Conservative talk radio, Fox news and trump are responsible for the deaths of about 500,000 Americans. Ten times are many as guns. and lies. So yeah, under the Biden presidency people continued to die many of whom died due to GOP idiocy . Biden is not responsible for those, nor for the other deaths as Biden put out a sound pandemic policy. People who die on your watch are only your fault if you did not act responsibly or if your lies caused the deaths. > [@Chronos](#): > > Most of the deaths nowadays are among people who still think Trump is President. They’re still his deaths. Exactly. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > I wish people would tone down their glee over comparative death rates by presumed political affiliation. Not _glee_- deep deep sadness. > [@BigT](#): > > No one needs to say Trump never did anything good to point out that he failed on COVID-19. He did not entirely fail. He mobilized Pharma to get a vaccine out quickly, and gave permission for it to move without the long, slow testing most drugs require. Sadly by that time, the idiot Right seized on the insane idea that any real medical advice on Covid was all part of a plot. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2022, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/31 "2022-06-25T23:50:04Z")
Correction: Trump was responsible for the start of the pandemic, and likewise, Biden is responsible for it now. “Responsible” does not mean “to blame for”. It means that dealing with it is your job. The President is, by virtue of his office, responsible for everything that happens to the US under his watch. When Trump publicly stated that he “took no responsibility”, that should have been considered a resignation, and we should have sworn in Pence. Because not being responsible means not being President any more. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/32 "2022-06-26T00:17:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > not being responsible means not being President any more. Not necessarily. If someone, for example, were to say that the President of the United States is responsible for the destruction of the Brazilian rainforest by Brazilian farmers, I would personally say that it would be reasonable for the President to disagree and say, “That’s not under my control and it’s not sufficiently central to US interests for me to try and make it our issue. I’m not going to invade Brazil or lead an embargo against them on this. It’s their issue and we have no interest not responsibility for it.” Some arbitrary person or group of persons declaring that the President has some obligation or duty to do some particular thing in some particular way isn’t the standard for what the President really is or isn’t responsible for doing. There are some things spelled out in the Constitution and in law that are pretty undeniably the responsibility of the President. But a lot of it is up to the President himself and how he thinks that things should be done. Trump (putatively) made an executive decision that it made more sense for the states to manage the Covid response for their regions. I don’t think there’s an objective way to say that he was wrong in that decision. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723/33 "2022-06-26T11:47:11Z")
The President of the US can say that Brazilian deforestation isn’t his responsibility, because Brazil is not the US. The President of the US can’t say that an epidemic sweeping through the states isn’t his responsibility, because the states are the US. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Some arbitrary person or group of persons declaring that the President has some obligation or duty to do some particular thing in some particular way isn’t the standard for what the President really is or isn’t responsible for doing. Correct; it’s the President’s job to decide what he’s going to do about something. That’s what we elect him for. But whatever he decides, he has to own that decision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-answer-to-the-out-of-context-talking-point-in-an-online-debate-that-theres-been-more-covid-deaths-under-biden/966723.md?page=1)