# Is there an easy way to remember what '\<' and '\>' mean in maths? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 27, 2013, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360 "2013-10-27T08:40:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/61 "2013-10-28T22:35:14Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > You don’t need any trick. The damn things are self-explanatory. All you have to do is look at them and engage your brain, if any. Well, to one way of thinking. This is an incredibly unhelpful reply. It makes sense to me just looking at it, too. But if the symbols were reversed, one could just as easily say “just look at the them and engage your brain, if any” in that the sign points to the bigger one, of course, dummy! ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/62 "2013-10-28T22:48:28Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Well, to one way of thinking. This is an incredibly unhelpful reply. It makes sense to me just looking at it, too. But if the symbols were reversed, one could just as easily say “just look at the them and engage your brain, if any” in that the sign points to the bigger one, of course, dummy! But they’re not reversed, and the idea of something “pointing” shouldn’t even come up. The little side is _ **less than** _ the big side, and the big side is _ **greater than** _ the small side. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/63 "2013-10-28T22:51:39Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Well, to one way of thinking. This is an incredibly unhelpful reply. It makes sense to me just looking at it, too. But if the symbols were reversed, one could just as easily say “just look at the them and engage your brain, if any” in that the sign points to the bigger one, of course, dummy! This is just not true. Unlike may symbol conventions, in math and elsewhere, this one is not arbitrary: little end to the littler number, big end to the bigger number. I will concede that someone encountering it for the first time probably will not understand it automatically. It needs to be explained, but, once it has been clearly explained, once, briefly (it might take about a minute, if you take it slow), it is trivial to remember, because it makes perfect sense. Unlike more arbitrary conventions, it does _not_ call for any sort of mnemonic, and trying to use one will only introduce unnecessary confusion. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/64 "2013-10-28T22:55:16Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I will concede that someone encountering it for the first time probably will not understand it automatically. It needs to be explained Exactly. It’s not self-explanatory. Thank you for agreeing with my point. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/65 "2013-10-28T22:58:59Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > But they’re not reversed, and the idea of something “pointing” shouldn’t even come up. The little side is _ **less than** _ the big side, and the big side is _ **greater than** _ the small side. So explain then why it’s confusing to some people. Because they’re all idiots? I don’t think so. Because it isn’t completely obvious to everyone. It happens to coincide with your interpretation of the symbol, but there isn’t one way of looking at it and interpreting it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/66 "2013-10-28T23:06:03Z")
My math teacher climbed on his desk. “I am King Kong! This is the Empire State Building! RARR!” He then beat his chest and started pointing. “I am bigger than you! I am bigger than you! I am King Kong! I am big! I point at all you little ones! BIG POINTS AT LITTLE!” It took about 30 seconds and is permanently emblazoned on my brain. BIG POINTS AT LITTLE! RAAAARRR! ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/67 "2013-10-28T23:16:09Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > So explain then why it’s confusing to some people. Because they’re all idiots? I don’t think so. Because it isn’t completely obvious to everyone. It happens to coincide with your interpretation of the symbol, but there isn’t one way of looking at it and interpreting it. The confusion arises either because people never had it explained to them in the first place, or because they were confused by over-complicated explanations in terms of “pointing” (it does not point, any more than the = sign does) and/or of superfluous and irrelevant mnemonics that make a simple thing seem complicated and intimidating. I will admit I was a mildly confused about it once, but as soon as I realized it is **little to little, big to big** (just as you would expect), it became clear and obvious. More “explanation” than that will only make things worse. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/68 "2013-10-28T23:16:54Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > yeah, but its get confusing for some people, maybe because they are storing both \< and \> in the same bucket in their brain , and so they recall both when they see one or the other. . . . I think you’ve touched something very pertinent to the discussion. Brains sort things into categories and give different things different priorities. > [@Tangent](#): > > . . . The alligator image may work better for some people _ **because** _ there’s a little more to it than just “smaller end” of the symbol. The whole point is to come up with a memorable association. . . . And the thing about these memory aids is that what works for one person may not work at all for someone else. It’s not a one-size-fits-all kind of solution. It’s not just memorable. It’s something that will go into **social** memory, rather than arithmetic, spatial, or logical memory, because it’s pointing out the **intention** of the alligator (or mouth). So a person who’s thinking perference is social will have a better chance of remembering it. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Well, certainly the Dave and Goliath one was a bit of fun, but none of the other ones seem particularly complex. To this day, I still see Pac Man eating the bigger number, although the music notation parallel follows closely, if not simultaneously. If I did that, I’d be stuck with those sound effects. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/69 "2013-10-28T23:24:38Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > I think you’ve touched something very pertinent to the discussion. Brains sort things into categories and give different things different priorities. Exactly. For some people, the symbol is just an angular squiggle on a page that is supposed to mean something. Having someone sneer that the BIG side is the BIG number, dummy, assumes that they are looking at it as representational in the first place and not just as a random notation that probably isn’t representational. Most symbols really aren’t intuitive, so why would people try to intuit their way around symbols? It’s easier in a lot of cases just to remember them, and remembering is easier in a lot of cases by some sort of mnemonic device or trick of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/70 "2013-10-28T23:31:46Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I will admit I was a mildly confused about it once, but as soon as I realized it is **little to little, big to big** (just as you would expect), it became clear and obvious. I agree. That make sense to me. So does Pac Man. So does the alligator thing. If somebody is really having difficulty understanding the concept, it doesn’t hurt trying different ways of explaining it. Like I said, I still think Pac Man when I see it. I understand the little-to-big explanation, but Pac Man is the one that stuck to me. They’re all visualizations that help one understand the concept. If “little-to-big” sticks to you, great. If a mouth eating the big number sticks to you, great. Who cares how you learn it? And you and I agree on the most important point: it is _not_ self-evident what means what. Once you know the definition, you can say it’s self-evident, but it can just as easily and logically (IMHO) be the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/71 "2013-10-28T23:39:53Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > because they were confused by over-complicated explanations in terms of “pointing” (it does not point, any more than the = sign does) I think you misunderstood me here. I’m not saying it points, nor that that is being used as an explanation. I’m saying that if one were to encounter the sign for the first time, I would not think it odd if the sign is interpreted as an arrow of sorts pointing to the larger value. _It’s not self-evident_. Like when I’m taking notes, I might write “from 1 - 100” as “1 -\> 100”. It doesn’t seem illogical to me to think someone would think the smaller term ends up on the wider side of the arrow (or what looks like an arrow.) ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/72 "2013-10-28T23:55:32Z")
Thanks for the replies, guys. I think I get it now:) > [@panache45](#): > > You don’t need any trick. The damn things are self-explanatory. All you have to do is look at them and engage your brain, if any. > > You have no idea what self-control it took, not to type this in all caps. What can I say? It’s a blind spot. Everybody has 'em. I know it’s not really analogous, but I have perfect pitch and I genuinely can’t understand what’s so difficult about playing something after listening to it. On the subject of the symbols, when I was little, we were taught to look at the tip of the arrow. The “Big side, big number” thing was just something we were never taught, so I guess you can say I’ve always thought about this from the wrong perspective. I could never remember if the tip was pointed at the big number or the little number. Also, since your rude and obnoxious post added precisely fuck all to the thread, regardless of how much “self-control” it took not to shout as well, you clearly have poor impulse control. Not posting is always an option, and perhaps it’s one you should take a little more often. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/73 "2013-10-29T00:13:19Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The confusion arises either because people never had it explained to them in the first place, or because they were confused by over-complicated explanations in terms of “pointing” (it does not point, any more than the = sign does) and/or of superfluous and irrelevant mnemonics that make a simple thing seem complicated and intimidating. Why doesn’t it point? You can find signs just like it on the road that are pointing: [Traffic Management Service in Melbourne | TrafficWorx](http://www.roadworx.com.au/images/arrow-sign.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/74 "2013-10-29T00:30:17Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Why doesn’t it point? You can find signs just like it on the road that are pointing: [Traffic Management Service in Melbourne | TrafficWorx](http://www.roadworx.com.au/images/arrow-sign.jpg) Because it is not a pointing sign. It is a manipulation of the = sign. In the = sign the lines are equal distance apart at both ends. The \< and \> signs are just the = sign with the lines tilted so the the distance between them is smaller at the side next to the smaller number and larger at the end facing the larger number. Unlike arbitrary signs these have there own common internal logic and don’t need any explanation other than the logic behind just one of them. Asking why they don’t point is akin to asking why the minus sign doesn’t underline. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/75 "2013-10-29T00:41:48Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > Thanks for the replies, guys. I think I get it now:) You can admit it. It was my patented David and Goliath mnemonic that really sealed the deal for you in helping to remember, wasn’t it? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/76 "2013-10-29T01:08:35Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > It’s not a difference, it’s exactly the same thing: going from less to more, and going from more to less. Jeez, guys, this is self-explanatory. You don’t see why “less than” meaning “get louder” is a contradiction? You don’t understand the confusion between “greater than” meaning “softer”? The problem I see with all of your mnemonics is they rely on having two numbers. It’s all well and good to make the alligator eat the bigger number in 3\_4, but what about if you walk into my office and see “\<4” under “weeks remaining” on my whiteboard? Doesn’t it take some effort think “OK, he’s talking about weeks, so that goes in the unwritten first position, so it’s w\<4, and the alligator eats the bigger number, so 4 is bigger, so weeks is less than that.”? Isn’t it easier to say “Little end first, so ‘less than’.”? And yeah, that’s four punctuation marks in a row. Booyah. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/77 "2013-10-29T01:47:15Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Because it is not a pointing sign. It is a manipulation of the = sign. In the = sign the lines are equal distance apart at both ends. The \< and \> signs are just the = sign with the lines tilted so the the distance between them is smaller at the side next to the smaller number and larger at the end facing the larger number. Unlike arbitrary signs these have there own common internal logic and don’t need any explanation other than the logic behind just one of them. > > Asking why they don’t point is akin to asking why the minus sign doesn’t underline. But the person asking how to tell them apart has absolutely no way of knowing that these signs are not arbitrary. So describing them as “pointing” makes perfect sense. It’s like if I said a dollar sign is an S with a line or two lines running through it vertically and you said, “It’s not an S with lines through it. It is an ancient symbol…” What does it look like to someone who doesn’t know if it is representational? It looks like it’s pointing. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/78 "2013-10-29T02:54:19Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But the person asking how to tell them apart has absolutely no way of knowing that these signs are not arbitrary. So describing them as “pointing” makes perfect sense. As I said, in the first place someone has to be told what it means, but the telling is very simple and is best kept simple. It is best if it does not describe the sign as pointing, because that only confuses the matter. I do not agree that everyone is inevitably going to see it as pointing. Is every triangle that we see seen as a pointer? But anyway, if, due to bad teaching or bad guesswork, someone has got it into their head that the sign is meant as a pointer, that idea really needs to be got out of their heads, and certainly not reinforced by elaborate and confusing analogies. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/79 "2013-10-29T02:57:06Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But the person asking how to tell them apart has absolutely no way of knowing that these signs are not arbitrary. So describing them as “pointing” makes perfect sense. It might make sense but it is the wrong answer and doesn’t actually help remembering anything. Ok so it is “pointing”, what is it pointing at? It’s pointing at the little number. Or it’s a croc eating the big number, or it is pacman eating the big number. This all requires you to remember what number the symbol is pointing at or eating. On the other hand if you explain the logic of the three symbols and the person understands the logic they don’t have to remember anything anymore, after the initial explanation the symbol’s meaning becomes self evident. By explaining a non arbitrary symbol in an arbitrary way you are actually complicating the explanation, not simplifying it. If someone thinks it is arbitrary, then explain that it is not. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360/80 "2013-10-29T03:01:25Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > As I said, in the first place someone has to be told what it means, but the telling is very simple and is best kept simple. It is best if it does not describe the sign as pointing, because that only confuses the matter. > > I do not agree that everyone is inevitably going to see it as pointing. I didn’t say they would. I said it doesn’t actually hurt anything to find a mnemonic for those people who do not find remembering which symbol is which easy. Arguing that we shouldn’t have this problem doesn’t actually address the problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-easy-way-to-remember-what-and-mean-in-maths/672360.md?page=5)