# Is there an: I absolutely DO NOT stand with Phil Robertson petition? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212 "2013-12-26T15:01:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/1 "2013-12-26T15:01:40Z")
I am a big believer in the First Amendment and Free Speech. I have reviewed the text of the FA, and I can’t find any reference to Congress ensuring that anyone be given a TV show. And part of the idea behind Free Speech is that ideas can be challenged, and that Congress cannot enact laws impinging that freedom. Enough ranting, the title states the question. I am not looking to censor anyone, and I couldn’t care less about the status of Duck Dynasty. But I would definitely sign a petition expressing my disgust with the level of ignorance Mr. Robertson displayed. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/2 "2013-12-26T15:36:25Z")
This incident has absolutely nothing to do with ‘Free Speech’. The issue here is ‘Television Ratings’. The first Amendment has nothing to do with it, unless one can show that either a) A&E is actually a government agency, or b) that ‘duck hunters’ or ‘guys with long beards’ are a protected class (which wouldn’t really be a 1st Amendment issue anyway…maybe a 14th Amendment issue one). The United States Constitution is a wonderful document. I just wish that people would read it before they start quoting it. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/3 "2013-12-26T15:45:09Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > This incident has absolutely nothing to do with ‘Free Speech’. The issue here is ‘Television Ratings’. > > The first Amendment has nothing to do with it, unless one can show that either a) A&E is actually a government agency, or b) that ‘duck hunters’ or ‘guys with long beards’ are a protected class (which wouldn’t really be a 1st Amendment issue anyway…maybe a 14th Amendment issue one). > > The United States Constitution is a wonderful document. I just wish that people would read it before they start quoting it. The first amendment and free speech are not the same thing. The former protects the latter. I happen to think that free speech should be encouraged even when not covered by the first amendment. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/4 "2013-12-26T15:47:09Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I am a big believer in the First Amendment and Free Speech. I have reviewed the text of the FA, and I can’t find any reference to Congress ensuring that anyone be given a TV show. The 1st AM CAN bind a private entity at times, but not here. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/5 "2013-12-26T15:49:44Z")
> [@First Amendment](#): > > **Congress shall make no law** respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or **abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press** ; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. The First Amendment proper, as written, only restricts the actions of the Federal Government, through its lawmaking legislative branch, Congress. This was historically important, as books were often banned at the state level; for a while, anyone who was anyone had read a book which was “Banned In Boston”, the Puritan Massachusetts natives having taken a hard line against anything which gave the blue-stockings a noticeable increase in blood flow to the organs they officially didn’t have. > [@Fourteenth Amendment](#): > > **Section 1.** All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. This was passed after the Civil War as part of the Reconstruction Amendments. It would form the basis for the doctrine of [incorporation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_Rights), by which process the Supreme Court decided that the majority of the Bill of Rights constrained the actions of _state_ governments, as well as the Federal government. This was a major shift in how the relationship between the various governments and the people was seen and it happened slowly, over the course of decades. Now, however, the First Amendment is fully incorporated and so no government in the US (not even a local or county government) can violate it. **But this still only applies to governments.** Private companies are not governments, and not bound by any of the Bill of Rights or any other Constitutional clause or amendment. They’re bound by laws, instead, and no laws say A&E has to keep Phil Robertson on the payroll in any capacity, assuming they’re willing to pay any penalty for violating any contract they may have with him. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/6 "2013-12-26T15:55:17Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **But this still only applies to governments.** Not always! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/7 "2013-12-26T15:55:25Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > The 1st AM CAN bind a private entity at times, but not here. How, precisely? ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/8 "2013-12-26T15:56:21Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > How, precisely? For one example, see Marsh v. Alabama, I have others, but have to run now. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/9 "2013-12-26T16:41:14Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > For one example, see Marsh v. Alabama, I have others, but have to run now. OK, interesting. [Marsh v Alabama](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama): > [@](#): > > Constitutional protections of free speech under First and Fourteenth Amendments still applicable within the confines of a town owned by a private entity. Marsh was a Jehovah’s Witness distributing religious material in the company town of Chickasaw, Alabama, owned by the Gulf Shipbuilding Corporation, in 1945. She was convicted of trespassing, and the Supreme Court held that the conviction couldn’t stand. I found another which is relevant: [Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._Robins): > [@](#): > > A state can prohibit the private owner of a shopping center from using state trespass law to exclude peaceful expressive activity in the open areas of the shopping center. However, Pruneyard only happened because the California Constitution provides an affirmative right of free speech: > [@Article 1](#): > > Every person may freely speak, write and publish his or her sentiments on all subjects, being responsible for the abuse of this right. A law may not restrain or abridge liberty of speech or press. The Federal Constitution, as you may notice, defends free speech by restraining the government. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/10 "2013-12-26T16:51:42Z")
Although there is a GQ in the OP, all of the discussion so far has been about the case itself, which is better suited to GD. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/11 "2013-12-26T16:52:12Z")
Can your employer fire you for having an Obama bumper sticker on your car? How about a pro-life bumper sticker? ---
**Author:** ![jharvey963](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/54ee81/32.png) [@jharvey963](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jharvey963)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/12 "2013-12-26T16:53:43Z")
Yeah, ok, but none of this is answering the OP. Is there a counter-petition people can sign that says “I do NOT stand with Phil Robertson”? I’d be interested in signing that myself. J. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/13 "2013-12-26T16:55:10Z")
> [@jharvey963](#): > > Yeah, ok, but none of this is answering the OP. Is there a counter-petition people can sign that says “I do NOT stand with Phil Robertson”? > > I’d be interested in signing that myself. > > J. So start one. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/14 "2013-12-26T17:01:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can your employer fire you for having an Obama bumper sticker on your car? How about a pro-life bumper sticker? As far as I know, yes. In general, political views are not protected from discrimination (with of course exceptions such as Equal Time provisions.) ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/15 "2013-12-26T17:18:06Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > This incident has absolutely nothing to do with ‘Free Speech’. The issue here is ‘Television Ratings’. > > The first Amendment has nothing to do with it, unless one can show that either a) A&E is actually a government agency, or b) that ‘duck hunters’ or ‘guys with long beards’ are a protected class (which wouldn’t really be a 1st Amendment issue anyway…maybe a 14th Amendment issue one). > > The United States Constitution is a wonderful document. I just wish that people would read it before they start quoting it. Obviously the situation has nothing to do with the First Amendment. But I don’t know why we’re adopting such a cramped view of “free speech.” Is our societal value of “free speech” really just limited to areas covered by the First Amendment? I remember a while back there was the issue of the “ground zero mosque.” And there were petitions and protests to discourage the group in charge from building it. And, on the other side, there were all sorts of people talking about “freedom of religion” and so on. And, obviously, they were incorrect as a matter of constitutional law (and I have no doubt that any contemporaneous threads on here at the time pointed that out). But, it seems to me that they were right that it, at least, implicated a commitment to religious freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/16 "2013-12-26T18:03:53Z")
The Ground Zero mosque issue _did_ involve the government. It wasn’t just a bunch of protests, it was a concerted effort to get the borough council (and later the municipal and state governments) to withhold planning permission or otherwise Do Something. That said, I think the more important distinguishing feature here is that Robertson’s employment by A&E is _primarily_ tied to his public image. Joe Smith the cashier’s employment at Best Buy is quite dissimilar in that regard. Thus, a significant question here is: > [@](#): > > Can your employer fire you for having an Obama bumper sticker on your car? How about a pro-life bumper sticker? Who is “you”? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/17 "2013-12-26T18:06:42Z")
Aren’t online petitions just data-mining schemes? ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/18 "2013-12-26T18:10:42Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > OK, interesting. > > [Marsh v Alabama](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama):Marsh was a Jehovah’s Witness distributing religious material in the company town of Chickasaw, Alabama, owned by the Gulf Shipbuilding Corporation, in 1945. She was convicted of trespassing, and the Supreme Court held that the conviction couldn’t stand. Two other cases, here, a public fora/forum question; [http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-6th-circuit/1033262.html](http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-6th-circuit/1033262.html) Here, a state actor/action question presented; [http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-901.ZS.html](http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-901.ZS.html) > [@](#): > > I found another which is relevant: > > [Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._Robins):However, Pruneyard only happened because the California Constitution provides an affirmative right of free speech:The Federal Constitution, as you may notice, defends free speech by restraining the government. This is Ohio’s counterpart to Pruneyard and citing; > **[EASTWOOD MALL, INC. v. SL | 68 Ohio... | st3d2211224 | Leagle.com](https://www.leagle.com/decision/199428968ohiost3d2211224)** > > FRANCIS E. SWEENEY SR. J. The issue before this court is whether an injunction prohibiting picketing patrolling handbilling ...st3d2211224 ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/19 "2013-12-26T19:00:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can your employer fire you for having an Obama bumper sticker on your car? How about a pro-life bumper sticker? This is more about employment law than freedom of speech. In most states, you can be fired for any reason, or for no reason at all, unless an employment contracts says otherwise, so a common answer would be “yes.” ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212/20 "2013-12-26T19:25:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Although there is a GQ in the OP, all of the discussion so far has been about the case itself, which is better suited to GD. I was hoping for a GA to my GQ… Can I open another thread with the same title, but with less blathering in the OP? I appreciate the responses, but I’m not sure how much I care. I don’t see this as a FA or FS issue. I just want to sign the: '_Phil Robertson can “Free Speak” all he wants; He’s an ignorant, dull-witted, douche-bag-wanna-be’_ petition. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-an-i-absolutely-do-not-stand-with-phil-robertson-petition/677212.md?page=2)